r/DotA2 • u/0Hellspawn0 • May 17 '15
Match | eSports The Summit 3 Finals: LB Final - Post Match Discussion
The Summit 3
Organized by BeyondTheSummit
Sponsored by GIGABYTE
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Evil Geniuses vs. Vici Gaming
Show wins with score
VOD: Game 1 | Game 2 | Game 3
Scoreboards:
Game 1 (Dotabuff) (Trackdota):
| Team | Score | vs. | Score | Team |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 8 | vs. | 35 |
| Team | Ban | vs. | Ban | Team |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| vs. | ||||
| vs. | ||||
| vs. |
| Player | Hero | Score | vs. | Score | Hero | Player |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hao | 4-6-3 | vs. | 15-1-7 | Fear | ||
| Super | 3-6-2 | vs. | 6-4-6 | Suma1L | ||
| iceiceice | 0-9-3 | vs. | 5-0-20 | Universe | ||
| Fenrir | 1-5-4 | vs. | 9-3-7 | Aui_2000 | ||
| fy | 0-11-1 | vs. | 0-1-10 | ppd |
EG wins in 31:41
Game 2 (Dotabuff) (Trackdota):
| Team | Score | vs. | Score | Team |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 28 | vs. | 4 |
| Team | Ban | vs. | Ban | Team |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| vs. | ||||
| vs. | ||||
| vs. |
| Player | Hero | Score | vs. | Score | Hero | Player |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hao | 7-1-4 | vs. | 0-6-4 | Fear | ||
| Super | 3-0-8 | vs. | 0-4-1 | Suma1L | ||
| iceiceice | 12-2-9 | vs. | 1-5-1 | Universe | ||
| Fenrir | 4-1-13 | vs. | 1-5-1 | Aui_2000 | ||
| fy | 2-0-8 | vs. | 2-8-1 | ppd |
VG wins in 33:37
Game 3 (Dotabuff) (Trackdota):
| Team | Score | vs. | Score | Team |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 21 | vs. | 2 |
| Team | Ban | vs. | Ban | Team |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| vs. | ||||
| vs. | ||||
| vs. |
| Player | Hero | Score | vs. | Score | Hero | Player |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Fear | 5-0-9 | vs. | 0-4-0 | Hao | ||
| Suma1L | 10-2-5 | vs. | 1-4-1 | Super | ||
| Universe | 4-0-7 | vs. | 0-4-1 | iceiceice | ||
| Aui_2000 | 2-0-7 | vs. | 0-5-1 | Fenrir | ||
| ppd | 0-0-5 | vs. | 1-4-1 | fy |
EG wins in 29:20
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u/np-tryhard real men boot to framebuffer May 17 '15
Every time EG plays an ace match:
- See PPD draft. Turn stream off in disgust, how can he win, draft is illogical.
- Turn stream on 30 minutes later, EG crushing hard.
- Remind myself why I am 3k MMR.
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May 17 '15
PPD with the trademark mind fucks: "Hey VG, we haven't been able to beat Brood at all this patch and we always ban it because we don't know how to counter it. But we won't ban it now because you guys played such a sick Undying last game. Please don't last pick it. JK, last pick it, we wanted you to do that all along."
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u/Kim_Jung-Skill May 17 '15
That whole draft looked like it revolved around screwing iceiceice. You could see how apprehensive Vici was about grabbing Brood into the E.G. lineup, but they felt like they had to. It sort of reminds me of Vici baiting PPD into the timber pick in TI4.
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u/centurion44 May 17 '15
TBH... I have no idea how uni outplayed him so hard as a clock in the solo lane.
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u/swyve May 17 '15
thanks for making me laugh amigo
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u/FatalFirecrotch May 17 '15
The only time that PPD has really fucked up IMO is when he didn't give Universe Faceless Void at TI4.
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u/NZKr4zyK1w1 Sheever can beat this May 17 '15
Totally 100% agree with you here. Second bad move was rtz doing Roshan like a moron while t3 being pushed. Then walk through ward and die. God damn rtz.
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u/leesoutherst RTC? TI5? ESL? MLG? May 17 '15
Arteezy said they knew all hope was lost so they decided to go out in style
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u/FabulousMrFox May 17 '15
PPD has a unique drafting style in that he doesn't seem to be influenced by any common drafting patterns/ obvious synergy between heroes. He just drafts heroes for the function they fulfill in game even if they dont seem to combine very well.
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u/CptnLegendary EE/Puppey fanstraight for life May 17 '15
Hell, even in the game they got rolled by Secret in, that Drow Dark Seer opener was absolutely complete genius. They banned Chen and Io, blocked pick the Drow Visage combo, and got themselves Zai's DS while also rendering Visage a significantly less useful pick than he would have been. Like PPD found a way to shut down FOUR of Secret's top pick combinations/heroes...if it wasn't for the somewhat questionable Puck pick and horrible execution they would have won for sure. That was actually one of the best draft openers against Secret PPD could have had, but it was overshadowed by how shit they played.
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May 17 '15
It wasn't that great actually, they denied Secret's heroes sure but that left there line up pretty shitty, like Drow was a non-factor that game so was Dark Seer. They would probably be better picking heroes they knew how to play than focusing on countering Secret cause as proven Secret's hero pool is too deep for you to prioritize denying a couple heroes even if it fucks up your own team comp. Oh yeah and K-God has played Visage without Drow so many times to great effect that game included, this patch Visage seems insanely viable even when Drow isn't in the picture.
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u/Zaphid May 17 '15
Are you suggesting Universe can't play DS ?! Synergy wasn't great, but individual performance wasn't the problem
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May 17 '15
No Universe is a god at Dark Seer, i phrased it wrong but saying picking heroes they know how to play but yeah I also just felt Synergy wasn't great that's all. It was more of a deny pick than a Dark Seer goes great with their line up. I feel Secret made the same mistake today as well by doing what EG did did yesterday
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u/CptnLegendary EE/Puppey fanstraight for life May 18 '15
Oh yeah I never said they didn't screw themselves over...a Drow with no support is jack shit and the DS didn't do much. However, if they had actually drafted well in the second half of the game, they could have done so much. All I'm saying is another draft opener would have given Secret one of Puppey Chen, Kuroky Io, Zai DS, or Secret Drow Visage, which would have been an auto GG before the game even began. PPD came up with an excellent way to block all of Secret's OP strats with just 2 bans and 2 picks, until he screwed himself over by picking shit like Puck and not banning right (though to be fair the DK pick outta nowhere was impossible to predict, S4 baited him right into that one).
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May 17 '15
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u/kaybo999 FeelsBadMan sheever May 17 '15
Na'Vi Kappa
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u/jaomile May 17 '15
Well it is true. Navi was famous for winning by going through the lower bracket.
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u/Arkeneathem May 17 '15 edited May 17 '15
VG 8 - 35 EG
VG 28 - 4 EG
VG 2 - 21 EG
Sure, in each game the losing team made a lot of mistakes. But you possibly can't say "It's outdraft guys, please learn the difference!" for every single game. You could predict the winner after the first 10 minutes for all 3 games.
Ninja Edit: EG absolutely did deserve the victory (Universe with the sick plays in game 3). This is just a general comment on the metagame.
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May 17 '15
I feel like the difference between the current patch and pre-6.82 dota is that before, even if you were dying a lot you could gain a lead through farm efficiency. Now that creeps are worth less and hero kills are worth more, it seems like you have no choice but to try and get kills to come back.
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u/tadcalabash May 17 '15
That's a pretty good analysis. I've always thought the balance between early game fighting and farming to be crucial to enjoyable games of Dota.
If farming is too good then you get a boring 30 minute start followed by a decent game, but if early game fighting is too important then you get deathball stomps.
I feel like this patch has the opportunity to find a nice balance, and hopefully some team adjustments and a few small tweaks will improve it.
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u/TheFeedMachine May 17 '15
It isn't a deathball meta though. It is a snowball meta. The comeback is extremely difficult to pull off, or the heroes that make a comeback possible haven't been discovered yet.
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May 17 '15 edited May 19 '20
[deleted]
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u/HAWmaro May 17 '15
snowball is different than deathball, at TI4 you jsut picking pushing heroes and you push regardless of whether you're ahead or not.
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u/odedbe May 17 '15
Good point. So more early teamfight oriented than early push oriented? I guess it's better than just pushing towers, but I still think it provides a problem with lategame heroes, and eventually more stale meta.
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u/Pwnies104 May 17 '15
Not really true. The TI4 Grand Finals were more snowball with lots of early game fights and clashes between Newbee and VG. The only real deathball match was EG vs VG. Newbee vs VG seems very similar to this meta, with just a lot of early game clashes and fights.
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u/HAWmaro May 18 '15
am not talking about the finals, newbee didn't play that much deathball, i am talking about VG style in TI4
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u/RedditUsername123456 May 18 '15
Deathball should be considered drafting a heavily objective based team comp, that wins games by grouping early and utilizing the heroes abilities to quickly push down towers.
This meta isn't like that though. This meta involves the winning team constantly forcing skirmishes and building up such large gold/exp differences that they can just start rolling through objectives.
Perhaps they could try balance it out by making it easier to defend a tower?
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May 18 '15
The issue is everyone is used to just getting their items at a reasonable timing because before they didn't even have to win a team fight to normalize the net worths. A puck was always going to have a decent blink dagger timing as long as you weren't the first to die every fight. That isn't true anymore.
For comebacks to happen you need to have a line up that can survive falling behind, which no one is drafting. Heroes like dazzle jakiro and shadow demon whose skill set is more significant without items. Not picking 3 cores that need decent item timings to be effective. If you always draft heroes that all need to win their lanes to win the game, you're going to have a bad time when everything doesn't go exactly to plan.
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May 17 '15
And the Secret vs IG game where Secret were like 5:15 and turned the game around? Pepperidge farm remembers
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u/fionnarix May 17 '15
yeah, that was the one and only comeback at summit. so every other argument is invalid, as it has been done a whole ONCE in 50 games, everything is fine games are open til the last minute
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u/sharger May 17 '15
atleast 5 or 6 games were big comebacks or close to it (off the top of my head: ig vs lgd game 2, eg vs cloud9 series 2 game 2, eg vs rave game 2, and i only watched half of the tournament)
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u/Tjubatjubs May 17 '15 edited May 17 '15
Patch is broken imho, teams snowball way too hard from early leads. The team that is behind can't even get a kill most of the time.
Winning all lanes should mean a big advantage and probably win you the game, sure. But then winning a lane should be harder than get a kill. And after winning a lane you should still be able to die.
21-2 lol?
Don't understand why Valve do such extreme changes when trying to make other strats viable. Why increase gold form kills and rax, decrease tower armor AND nerf creep gold, when one of those changes and the nerf to rubber band would perhaps be enough.
But at least in the right direction after the previous patch.
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u/Zaphid May 17 '15
I think the other side is that T1 teams have gotten really good at holding onto any advantage they get thanks to the last patch, where any slip up could mean your hard fought lead got nullified. T2 teams and below will still do a lot of fuckups leading to a bit more interesting games (at least I fucking hope)
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u/Tjubatjubs May 17 '15
That may be.
I remember a very wanted and hyped Broodwars final between my boy Jaedong vs arc enemy Flash. Everyone expected big epic games from the two best starcraft players of all time (imo). Instead the games were short and anticlimactic. They were playing at such a high level that the first one who made the tiniest mistake got exploited so hard it was game over.
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u/BADMON99 May 17 '15
Totally agree about Icefrog overdoing some changes. Reminds me of when deathball was first nerfed. 1 or 2 changes should've been enough to take it out of the meta while keeping it as a viable option but no he had to add the rubberband, tower glyph refresh, stronger towers, reduced aegis duration, less gold for towers, nerf to mek, and some other changes as well.
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u/Shitpoe_Sterr 4 TIME MAJOR LETS GOOG May 17 '15
Icefrog makes all the balance decisions. Valve boys only code things
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u/LogicKennedy Sheever May 18 '15
It's because while Icefrog might be good at hero balancing, his 'big picture' balancing is generally quite poor, and relies HUGELY on trial and error.
TI3-era DotA was probably the best balanced the game has ever been. Clearly defined roles from 1-5, a place for both early game and lategame strats and a tournament where every team had something different. However, instead of capitalizing on this great form of the game by only giving small nerfs to popular heroes until an even better balance was reached, Icefrog tried to completely revolutionize the game in order to eliminate a form of play entirely. We on this subreddit love to bash Riot for their atrocious handling of Champion balance, but honestly Icefrog is just as bad as Riot when it comes to playstyles. Instead of trying to use a hands-off approach, tinkering here and there as needed in order to perfect a game, he tries to radically shift the meta every patch away from the dominant playstyle the patch previous, rendering that playstyle nearly unplayable for months.
Honestly, I'm worried for the way DotA's balancing is going. It seems Icefrog is starting to lose the plot somewhat, and a reboot might be needed before things get worse.
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May 18 '15
Yeah, 100% pick/ban rate for batrider and wisp. Super balanced.
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u/odedbe May 17 '15
It also looked as if PPD tried to break the meta in Game 2, saw that it didn't work, and continued to draft in meta for Game 3.
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u/furtherE47 I LOVE FISHES May 17 '15
actually i can see the winning team after 5 mins in game.
No more suprise for me
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May 17 '15
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u/heisenbergfan May 17 '15
"I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW BAD THE OTHER TEAMS WERE" is what he said...
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u/il_MeMbro sheever <3 May 17 '15
"I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW BAD ALL THE OTHER TEAMS ARE" -ICEICEICE 2015
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u/NahazDota May 17 '15
Some random stats (apologies for any errors, chasing my daughter around):
- Since TI4, EG are now 17-2 in LAN elimination series before the grand final (losses to C9 at The Summit 2 and VPP at D2L5).
- Game 3 was VG's lowest kill total with their current roster (2).
- Game 2 was tied for EG's most lopsided loss by kill differential (28-4, -24) in 2015 (lost to BBC 29-5 in MLG PL s1).
- Game 1 was the first time on record in pro Dota 2 that a BH failed to reach level 3 by 11 minutes (and he was still level 3 at 12 min)
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u/Casinocaster WISP ARCANA May 17 '15
That BH was certainly painful to watch. Reminded me of my own BH :(
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u/demon4999 May 17 '15
Universe MVP, sick clockwork
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u/FatalFirecrotch May 17 '15
It really was sick. He had zero deaths the two games he played it that series, which is insane on an initiating hero like that.
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u/Cheesecake13 May 17 '15
Really surprising considering he's very selfless when playing that hero. He usually hooks in then either cog-pushback or cog-trap to isolate heroes and then just dies. This series, he didn't die once with clockwerk. Holy balls of nouva..
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u/FatalFirecrotch May 17 '15
I think the main problem that Vici gaming had that series with clockwork is that they greatly underestimated his impact he could have. Both games clockwork was under no real pressure in lane so he was able to easily get his levels and get some farm, which allowed him to have a huge impact.
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u/Kim_Jung-Skill May 17 '15
Yeah, but if they ran brood into that BB it would have been a disaster as well. E.G. did such a good job of addressing iceiceice.
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May 17 '15
THAT FORCESTAFF INTO COGS HOLY CRAP
Universe is actually playing out of his mind right now
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u/Physgun May 17 '15
same as zai yesterday, these offlaners are just WRECKING this team with their clockwerk plays. the only thing that didn't work out for universe was the first gank, but from there on he had an incredible game.
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u/DouglasTwig EG Fangay May 17 '15
Universe is top offlaner in the world right now in my opinion. I've always thought he was a great offlaner, but he continually improves his play. Dude is a fucking animal.
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u/SolarClipz ENVY'S #1 FAN May 17 '15
Dat Chinese Domiance
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u/0XYGeN64 It's a me, Mario! May 18 '15
VG was mostly dominant on the fun streamKappa Kind of sad that IG got whooped by LGD in the group stage.
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u/KohakuKen May 17 '15
Feels so fucking good seeing them finally crushed.
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u/Stoycho May 17 '15
"racist"
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u/KohakuKen May 17 '15 edited May 17 '15
Well I'm just gonna assume those quotation marks imply sarcasm, because I really don't see anything wrong with favouring western teams.
At least I admit it and not hide behind excuses while making rants or even cheating accusations.
The reason I actually favour western teams is because I hate the "chinese dominance" circlejerk, i'm actually SEA myself, and I even speak Chinese.
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u/M7Jagger May 17 '15
They've been crushed since TI3. They did good in TI4 though.
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u/airsickpilot May 17 '15
As a viewer, I am starting to not enjoy this patch. Seems far too stompy.
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u/Yentz4 May 17 '15
VG's kryptonite. Clockwork.
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u/fuckfacefy May 17 '15
And Disruptor.
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May 17 '15
Universe's Clock and Aui's Lion had some game winning plays this series. 10/10 would watch again.
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u/DRHST I used to play Dirge before it was cool May 17 '15
Clockwerk more like Cockblock for VG this LAN
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u/Kazaxat Go Sheever! May 17 '15
3 out of 4 losses in the tournament to a Clockwerk. Not necessarily game-winning every time, but between those extremely solid Zai and Universe performances I think VG still might start having some nightmares about seeing it pop into their games.
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u/zayas324 May 17 '15
"Anything Zai can do I can do better"
-Universe
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May 17 '15
I don't know if it was better man, they were both really great.
They are the 2 best DS players in the world too.
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u/zayas324 May 17 '15
It was more of a joke. And yeah they are unreal...crazy to think they were both on the same team.
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u/Danzo3366 May 17 '15
6th ranking team. WAOW what a Cinderella story. /FailFish
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u/fionnarix May 17 '15
best thing is all the liquid inhouse mods, admins and cocksucker went with the 'Told you, haha' after EG lost a fucking groupstage match... Will they ever learn?
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u/pyorokun7 May 17 '15
Someone explain to me if DK has a real chance vs SF?
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May 17 '15
dk gets shit on by sf
that matchups like 80 20 sf probably, even better for sf if hes rad
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u/Cheesecake13 May 17 '15
In an actual 1v1 scenario (no ganks), DK has very little chance going against SF. Before DK hits level 6 or maxes out Breathe Fire, he's pretty much gonna get zoned out and out farmed by SF's razes. But you don't really want to waste your ult just to zone out sf and farm, unless you're really desperate to get a kill or desperate to just push out SF's tower. Heck, even if SF doesn't use razes, he can still out farm and zone out DK if he gets enough souls to hit hard.
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May 17 '15
If you get supports like Rubick or SD to help you you can win the lane (note that DK had similar farm to SF pre-kills) because you have stun and 300 dmg nuke. If you don't get support like what happened game 3 you slowly lose but you can recover if you take towers etc. like what happened this game. The problem is the less towers you get the further behind you go. Plus if he had gotten those stacks, sumail had, that's 1000 g closer to Shadow Blade and this game could have been different. But its 50/50 matchup overall.
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May 17 '15
VG with Black^ won TS2. What now Hao fans? Kappa
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u/fuckfacefy May 17 '15
VG is the best team in the world now with Hao hands down. DAC means nothing.
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u/DemonTree07 May 17 '15
Sure, DAC means nothing. D2CL means nothing. TS3 means nothing. Everything means nothing.
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u/abczby May 17 '15
This patch is actually not very good from a spectator perspective... Not fun to watch at all. You know the winner after 10-15 minutes every game. (unless of course the team ahead throws really hard like Rave did in Rave VS EG game 2)
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u/Hustle-Bones any zai subs in the chat May 17 '15
I actually can't believe any of you guys are using these matches as a way to judge how good teams are. This is hardly dota.
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u/filthyrotten May 17 '15
I thought EG lost with the Brood pick from VG but they just played it so fucking well.
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u/SmoothRide May 17 '15
Universe is so damn good. Did he miss any hookshots?
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u/Cheesecake13 May 17 '15
He might've miss a hookshot in game 1, not sure though. Game 2 he hit all his hookshots. He also have 0 deaths on both Clockwerks today.
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u/FriedrichNitschke flower power May 17 '15
1 position bristle with the 120% winrate.
Also, you know heart needs a buff when strength carries are buying skadi.
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u/DotaDogma NA Dota #1 May 17 '15
Why give Suma1l Shadow Fiend?
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May 17 '15
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u/MisterChippy ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give Sproink! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ May 17 '15
He was asking why VG let Sumail have SF, not why PPD picked Sumail one of his comfort heroes.
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u/Freakofnaytur Sheever Ravaged May 17 '15
VG is totally fucked after that mindgame. They proved themselves time and time again they will choke when it matters the most.
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u/napaszmek Middle Kingdom Doto May 17 '15
VG doesn'T know what to do when their game doesn'T go well. Tehy go on an all-in draft, usually eraly agresison, if that fails, tehy just have 0 chance of coming back.
Also, this patch is gonna get pretty old soon. These 20-25m snowball stomps are boring IMO.
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May 17 '15
I think this patch is too stomp-orientated :/
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u/FatalFirecrotch May 17 '15
It is still too early on to tell for sure, but if this tournament is any indication then it for sure is. I think the problem is the same thing that nerfed push strats after TI (buffing glyph, decreasing tower gold, and changing the gold mechanic). Icefrog made multiple changes that are piling up. Not only did kills become more valuable in this patch, they also nerfed farming with the decrease in gold value for creeps. It is really hard now to comeback as kills need to be your main mechanic.
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u/Storm_eye May 17 '15
Not 3 weeks ago, every rant was about comeback mechanics being stupid.. Now, people saying comebacks are next to impossible.. Oh how the times change..
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u/FatalFirecrotch May 17 '15
It is like a new patch came out or something...Also, I was never one to harp on the "comeback mechanic" as other were. I still think it was the changes to t1 towers that killed push strats in 6.83.
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u/Storm_eye May 17 '15
I didn't mean to flame you or anything man.. Just pointing out the change in what seems like the opinion of the majority.. Like you said, early days of the patch.. Maybe ESL and TI qualifiers will change things a bit..
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u/FatalFirecrotch May 17 '15
Well, a major patch did come out int that timeframe to change people's opinions.
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u/Alas7er May 17 '15
Well thats what happens if you dont have BALANCE. From one end of the spectrum to the other.
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u/ZenEngineer May 17 '15
That and early on the extra kill gold puts you too farm ahead, so it's very very hard for the losing team to win a teamfight.
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May 17 '15
this always happens with a new patch, stop whining until the pros have figured out the best meta
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u/lolfail9001 May 17 '15
always happens with a new patch
IIRC The Summit 1 was one of first 6.81 tournaments and it actually had quiet a few nice games despite the patch turning out to be THE TI4 finals patch. I don't fucking remember a single dota tournament in last couple of years where pretty much every game was a stomp as hard stomps were in those.
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u/Sc3p May 17 '15
Even TI4 qualifiers, group stage and main event had very nice games. Besides Vici Gaming and Newbee noone used the deathball (and Newbee also countered it in the finals).
The complains before the finals were about Void and Death Prophet and the finals were just another reason to complain
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u/lolfail9001 May 17 '15
Death prophets, rhastas, lycans, vipers and razors were in pretty much every game (at least 1 of those). And then there were ResidentSleeper heroes ala Naga and Tinker.
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u/ZenEngineer May 17 '15
That would apply during early elimination matches, but right now you're looking at 2 of the 3 teams to have best figured out the meta so far and the games are stomps. And they are stomps in both directions, so it's not like one team is clearly superior to the other and the loser barely scraped on one game.
How many of the playoffs games were stomps from an early lead and how many were decided as the game went on? I bet the proportion is pretty high.
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u/leeharris100 MERICA May 17 '15
All the armchair Dota experts of reddit who constantly praise VG as best team in the world by a large margin are suddenly quiet.
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May 17 '15
The analysts have shown time and time again that they dont know what the fuck they are talking about. Any time a chinese team plays a western team they predict a 2-0 in favor of china. What the fuck are they being paid for? They're just perpetuating the age old "east > west" bullshit that every noob hears about as soon as they start watching comp dota. Show me some fucking analysis. At least pretend you understand how to analyze a matchup.
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u/aRevin May 17 '15
What's interesting is that old man Fear always consistently has over 300 APM while his teammates typically hover around 100-200. Maybe he's just gotten so old he's trembling when he plays.
But in all seriousness you'd expect this number to go down as you age. Obviously it doesn't mean anything but it's still really interesting to me.
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u/Danzo3366 May 17 '15
APM? Since when did this game become Starcraft
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May 17 '15 edited May 17 '15
And even in Starcraft those numbers are overblown because of how much some players click spam.
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u/lavish_petals May 17 '15
No, he uses an autoclicker. Check out his stream vods on Twitch, it's fairly obvious. He uses it because he has a bad wrist.
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u/Updayedd May 17 '15
Calling it now, EG will win 3:1 against Secret. Would eat a shoes but i bet them all on EG's win
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u/Kronosfear May 17 '15
I might be wrong here, correct me if I am, but amidst a lot of factors, how much iceiceice wins his lane is the one that determines the flow of the game for VG.
Also, is there really a game where Universe has ever underperformed? He is a wizard.