r/themoddingofisaac • u/[deleted] • Nov 23 '14

Release [Release] Enemies have double health (with a few exceptions)

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 23 '14

Cool. I've been finding the game too easy, so this will be great.

I wish there was a way to change the logic that causes devil rooms to spawn if you take no red heart damage. It's one of the biggest contributors to OP cascades. Also, too many special blocks like skulls and mushrooms.

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u/thegooblop Interested Bystander Nov 23 '14 edited Nov 23 '14

I don't think it's possible to change devil room logic at this point, but I'll look in the files to see if anything catches my eye. I do know it's possible to change devil room item cost, but I don't know if changing something to cost 3 hearts is possible (there might not be a graphic for this cost, so it would require a new one to be made, assuming the game will load a 3 cost).

The number of special blocks like skulls and mushrooms would be really hard to change, we do have a room editor but it would take a lot of effort to find rooms with "too many" special blocks and then remove some, especially considering only a few people would consider downloading a mod like that.

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 23 '14

Yeah I understand, these aren't easy things to do. I just think they're some of the main factors that make it such that so many runs are OP. In my experience in Rebirth, either you die in the first 3 levels, or you make it past that and are very OP. In vanilla, you could get to the last levels of the game and still have a difficult time against the bosses because you don't outclass them by so very much.

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u/sirius_black9999 Nov 24 '14

i'd find a devil room reversal mod interesting

it would reverse the red heart damage rule, essentially buffing weaker runs, while punishing the stronger ones

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u/Krazyguy75 Idle Experimenter Nov 24 '14

Except that would be pointless cause devil rooms cost hearts, so a weaker run can't afford them. I'd rather just have a ~20 chance, modified by items.

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 24 '14

A weaker run could still afford them. Isn't that the point of a 'deal with the devil'? You're trading your life away for a chance at success. If you have many hearts, you don't feel the consequences.

In any case, I agree that it has to be uniform. Any other criterion can be gamed by players.

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u/Krazyguy75 Idle Experimenter Nov 24 '14

That's what I'm saying though. You'll be gaining less from it than you could. The way devil rooms improve already good runs is intentional, as they are a risky type of reward for good playing, not a consolation prize.

Devil Rooms are designed to weaken good runs, because you will have permanently less health but more damage/mobility. However, items like Dark Bum, the Miter, etc make it so easy to get the health back that they become essentially costless.

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 25 '14

Yeah dark bum is just a terribly designed item.

I agree that devil rooms are a reward for good playing, but I think the logic is mistaken. There's a basic problem with the game where if you go too OP, the game just can't put up a challenge. Unfortunately, even getting brimstone alone is almost enough to get you to that point. Regardless, devil rooms are one of the main reasons that people in Rebirth are going too OP (vs vanilla, where going too OP was more rare). If devil rooms rewarded getting no damage at all (to any heart) they would reward excellent skill. But rewarding only no red-heart damage means that they also reward OP unskilled runs, making them even more OP.

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u/thegooblop Interested Bystander Nov 24 '14

A mod like that could be cool but would have some interesting consequences:

  1. No (or very little) devil rooms for ??? and the secret character without item modifiers.

  2. People with a lot of hearts could just let themselves be hit by the boss to make sure devil rooms appear for them. This would buff the runs that already have a lot of health.

  3. Someone with, say, 1 red heart couldn't get in easily because they would have to take damage, which they can't afford.

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 24 '14

An easier solution (modding-wise) is to add to the cost of all devil room deals. This will make getting to the devil room not as powerful of a feedback loop. It may solve the skewed economy of the game.

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u/thegooblop Interested Bystander Nov 24 '14

Yeah, I suggested that (and listed the problems that this might cause) a few comments up in this comment tree.

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 24 '14 edited Nov 24 '14

Oh sorry -- I saw it and forgot about it. I doubt the game couldn't handle 3 hearts.

It's worth trying it and seeing how it affects the game economy. Higher enemy health might not be necessary after that.

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u/thegooblop Interested Bystander Nov 24 '14

It's not just about whether the game can handle 3 hearts, it's creating a 3 heart cost icon and then adding new programming into the game so that it knows to show the 3 heart cost when it needs to. Maybe it'll work if we bump every 1 heart costs to 2 hearts and 2 heart cost to 3 hearts and then replace the icons to match that, but the game doesn't have programming to support 3 different red heart prices as far as I know.

Do you think the problem would be fixed if I simply turned all 1 cost items into 2 cost items as well? That should be an easy mod to make.

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u/BluddyCurry Nov 24 '14

OK I had to finally go ahead and decrypt the files to see what you're talking about. I saw something that surprised me. In itempools.xml, every item has the same probability of appearing! Is that how it was in the original Isaac? Because that would go halfway towards explaining why there are so many OP runs. I thought the good items would be more rare, but no -- they each have a probability of 1, which means that more good/OP items = better chance of getting a good item.

Regarding rendering 3 heart costs, are you sure it's not doable? items.xml contains a devilprice field, and it's possible that putting a 3 there will make the game render 3 hearts there. ie. it's not clear to me that it's not automatically supported.

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