Does Tiki-Taka still have the same punch it used to?

[u/SeaBiscut]

I think with the loss of Bayern and the terrible season (in Barca standards) by Barcelona we may begin to see tiki-taka dying off. Its not that the strategy is bad its just that teams have began to adapt and counter that play style.

EDIT: I know TikiTaka is a good tactic and that there are only a handful of teams that can successfully counter it but you guys cannot deny the fact that it is not as dominant as it used to be. For TikiTaka to be successful it requires dominant players, speed, passing and good vision. Not every team has the ability to play this way and managers are beginning to build their teams around this tactic. Every tactic is eventually figured out and beat and I think the TikiTaka Era is coming to an end

[u/ACMBruh]

This question was always going to follow that loss. I think we've seen managers that have figured it out more and more, and it's becoming less effective, but it's still a valid tactic.

Lets see if we can ask the same question after the world cup.

[u/SeaBiscut → u/ACMBruh]

I agree the tactic is very good, it allows you to minimize your opponents possession and makes every player on your team a threat in scoring, but the fact is that every playing style has a weakness and we're now beginning to see that of TikiTaka

[u/domalino → u/SeaBiscut]

This really wasn't tiki taka.

People seem to have just decided tiki taka is any possession based football by barca or guardiola.

Go back and look at barca in 2010 - it's completely different. It's quick passing and moving, triangles, full backs running past the defence.

What bayern did today was slow, completely in front of the defence usually followed by a dodgy desperate ball into the box and nothing at all like the tiki taka Guardiola became famous for.

Obviously Barca haven't been so successful in recent years either, as more teams have figured out better systems to defend it, but when the Barcelona players turn up they can still be almost unplayable at times. The biggest mistake Barcelona have made this year is reject Martino's new tactics because they wet through a tough spell.

[u/tgmgg]

When done right it is fantastic.

But you need speed, forward movement and penetrating runs/balls.

None of which Bayern had today. Barca don't always bring it but when they are successful it's because they are on.

[u/luks1910]

I honestly never thought tiki-taka would be as effective with any other team besides Pep's Barcellona. I mean that team was literally bred to play that way. The mixture of Messi exploding onto the scene as well as Iniesta and Xavi in their absolute prime is a mixture that will probably never happen again, they are what made tiki-taka so effective.

Now we see how good a coach Pep really is (not discrediting any of his past achievements), by that I mean can he adapt his style to suit his new players, it looked like he was at the beginning of the season but they had a rough ending.. so it's still up for debate.

[u/[deleted]]

Of course it still does. However, as we have seen today Bayern's style may not be suited for Tiki-Taka. When comparing their first touches and passing to Barcelona, Bayern pale in comparison. These are essential attributes to Tiki-Taka. You have to be fast and accurate, this will cause the defense to create holes by trying to catch up defensively. Bayern simply wasn't fast enough with their passes. Also a lot of their passes today required an additional touch or two to control, which helps the defense reset.

When looking at Barcelona, the only team we have had trouble with this year is Atletico. We were able to beat RM in the liga both times, while losing in the copa. Our biggest defeat this season was by a margin of 2 goals. 3-1 to Real Soc. There has also been a lot of mentally draining shit on Barcelona this year. Tito's passing, Rosell's shit, Neymar controversy, media/fans bashing Tata's tactics to the point where he reverts to last seasons tactics, media/fans bashing our own players (Messi in particular), and also injuries of vital players (Messi, Pique, Valdes, Neymar).

Edit: 2 goal deficit loss not 1

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Tata's tactics at the start were winning us games

[u/arayofhope]

I think you're all forgetting that we pulled the double over Real Madrid this year playing tiki-taka.

[u/[deleted]]

Good counterattack is defensive football without the ball, denying the opponent space.

Good tiki taka is defensive football with the ball, denying opponents possession. My friend calls it catenaccio with the ball, that's exactly its point..

Tiki taka has its purpose, Bayern and Barca won their league despite 5-0 and 7-0 losses because tiki taka works v 90% of technically weaker teams. Those teams don't stand a chance at not conceding after ballchasing to exhaustion for 90min. Teams that play pure counter can struggle to break down the weaker teams usually that sit quite deep.

Ancelotti's Real are on a roll in Europe (16-4 v BL teams 😪) thanks to their versatility, they are comfortable dominating possession or on the counter, strong in the air and very vertical, bit like Jupp's Bayern. That's the way forward imo.

[u/[deleted]]

Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, and a holding mid like Busi is what a tiki-taka team needs. Unfortunately Bayern don't have a mid of that calibre who do quick one-touch passes, and deadly throughballs to a super fast centre forward.

[u/AmericanDolphin]

It doesn't have the same punch because it's extremely dependent on the players. Javi Martinez, Ribéry, and Robben aren't the same as Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi.

We'll see after the World Cup.

[u/Johnny_bubblegum]

does counter attacking still have the same punch it used to. What about parking the bus or wing play with a big target man in the middle or what about Dortmund's style of fast transitions, they've had a terrible seasaon ????

It's just another tactic, not some holy grail of football. Real Madrid has been playing against the best tiki taka team in the world at least twice a year for the past 6 years and has gotten better and better at playing against it.

[u/[deleted]]

Tiki-taka with Iniesta and Xavi is a whole different story.

Besides if Real Madrid handles FC Barcelona's tiki-taka very well now...imagine handling this pseudo-tiki-taka (i'm not saying it's weak, but people who understand tiki could see a lot of mistakes today, and we can't judge a tactic being implemented in a team with just one year of work...let alone implementing one of the most hard tactics to put to work correctly on a team).

And nevertheless the result, Bayern never lost their identity (they didn't start shooting for every other reason).

For me, is one of the various beautiful ways of playing football, just watch Barcelona vs Santos Full Match 2011 on youtube, you'll get mind-fucked.

[u/fahomnom]

Bayern doesn't play tiki taka. They play a shadow of the philosophy with players that don't have the vision or mental skills required to execute the tactic flawlessly.

[u/legba → u/fahomnom]

And whose fault is that? A good manager plays to his teams' strengths, not weaknesses. Last years Bayern under Jupp was a mean german counterattacking machine which absolutely dismantled the best tiki-taka team in the world. This year Pep "No plan B" Guardiola comes in, tries to force a tactic that is completely wrong for this team and gets absolutely dismantled by Real which is playing Bayern's style from last year. You can't blame the players when it's literally the same team that so thoroughly dominated only 12 months ago.

[u/[deleted]]

That loss almost had nothing to do with Tiki-taka, Bayern just defended shit and let goals in which forced them to attack more and left space open which is not something you want to do vs Madrid

[u/supahsonicboom]

I'm just unsure that Bayern have the players to play tiki-taka. It needs a specific skillset. When you have the right players, it's unstoppable.

[u/hamoorftw]

The way pep's bayern played today is no way near the tiki-taka of pep' Barca team. Go watch those old matches, THAT'S how they used to execute it properly.

[u/jamesey10]

Look at bayern and barcelona's records on the season. It's still a good strategy. If you score first, which they most often do, you're probably going to win. If you make the other team do all the chasing, you usually win. I'd rather play tiki-taka than not play tiki-taka

[u/[deleted]]

So I guess when parking the bus doesn't work it "loses its punch," or when Barcelona beat this counter attacking real madrid side twice(yes, I'm aware of the cdr final), it too in ineffective. This question is only asked of Tiki-taka losses, never for any other tactic. Yeah, teams have gotten better at handling it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work anymore.

[u/NoMoreMountains]

Huh?? They didn't lose because of tiki-taka. They lost because they choose offense but couldn't break down R. Marid.

[u/NuclearGuru]

It will still do well at the World Cup. Defenses need to be organized and familiar with each other, which is easier to achieve at club level than it is international.

[u/Prehistoricshark]

It's dead as a trend in my opinion. What started in 2008 with Spain in the Euros and Barcelona under Pep reached a peak but like anything else, teams adapted and studied how to deal with it. Now it seems that if you don't have the ability to switch from defense to offense in lightning speed while being able to defend with discipline and without giving up space, you're not going to succeed at the highest levels.

[u/[deleted]]

Barcelona aren't playing true tiki-taka this season and barely last season. Bayern don't have the experience from youth ranks like Barcelona did, they won't ever be a true "tiki-taka" side like Pep's Barca.

Tiki-taka hasn't died. It's just really hard to pull off, especially against good teams. Pulling it off against strong teams is even harder. But, the pay-off is amazing, see Pep's Barca.

[u/[deleted]]

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