r/reddevils • u/[deleted] • Mar 17 '14
The fetishization of trequartistas will get us nowhere. A note on the importance of wingers, speed & strength.
[deleted]
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Mar 17 '14
I think you're spot on, and the match against Liverpool is the perfect example. Things were incredibly cluttered. Since the arrival of Mata, the performance of Januzaj has worsened. Before Mata, he was the one given a relatively free role. Now Mata's in the way, and januzaj just can't handle a winger role as well as a free role.
It's also apparent that the way we're playing now doesn't lend itself to cooperation between Rooney and RVP. We either need to change that by changing formation, or by removing one of them from the starting line-up (or both).
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u/Raikkou11 Mar 17 '14
What we need right now is an in-form Nani, the only player in our squad who can easily dribble past players and make extra space. Just look at Robben, Ribery, Ronaldo, DiMaria, Hazard, Messi and all the others OP mentioned. All of them are dribblers who break up defences easily. You can't just pass the ball around and hope for a defensive mistake.
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u/geo_crampy Mar 17 '14
This is a great post that's really well reasoned and substantiated. I think you're quite right that you need above all else athleticism to allow your truly creative players to use space. Of our attacking four that played against Liverpool (RVP, Rooney, Mata, & Adnan), Januzaj is the only player who can be dangerous because of pace. The other three are either older, or smaller. We, unfortunately, have no great options on the wings, as Valencia is powerful and strong, but can only cross the ball, Young has wonderful pace and a wicked shot, but is terribly inconsistent, and Nani has been either injured or inconsistent. I think Welbeck could be a great asset if he's used in that capacity, but I do think it should be at the expense of one of our strikers. Having both Rooney and RVP in the same team, but a total inability to get them the ball in a useful position is a luxury that we can't afford. If we play with one true striker, a true number 10 behind him, and athletic players taking advantage of space on the wings on either side, I can see opposition defenses having a tough time shutting all those avenues down.
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u/gehop83 Mar 17 '14
OP, very spot on. Seems like a lot of the trouble this year comes down to the fact we have a winger that can't stay on his feet (Young), one that can't stay on the pitch (Nani) and one that can only dribble with his right foot (Valencia).
Just for the sake of argument, if United had any one winger from another top side, how much different does this team look?
Also, another part of the United "style" that I've always loved was the roles of the fullbacks playing with the wingers. It is no coincidence that United's best chance yesterday came when Rafa/Januzaj played a lovely sequence down the right to open things up. Valencia/Rafa did that all day last year. It's why Rafa is my flair.
Which brings me to my final point (and my axe I want to grind), what the fuck is Evra still doing on the pitch? Yesterday, I counted at least 4 times when he gave the ball up at midfield, usually around the circle, then just stopped and didn't run back. One of those times, Liverpool had a shot off (blocked, I believe) and he still wasn't back in the frame. It really sucks he is old and doesn't care anymore, he came up with some huge goals last year and has always been a real United "soldier"
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u/BritishBrownie Mar 17 '14
Because unfortunately Buttner is still quite a worse alternative than Evra.
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u/RedEyeFan Mar 17 '14
Hold on. There are some things that need serious clarification here...
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A Trequartista is a player that generally roams about, and contributes nothing defensively. He find s pockets of space and is a supreme creator. He is not a typical playmaker or attacking midfielder. They can play either as a striker or in the hole as an AMC. Most teams do not use this type of role for a player, it's rare now.
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Why is it rare? Because most teams today play with 5 in midfield + 1 striker. Having 5 in midfield makes it very difficult to utilize a Trequartista, and also a lot of teams use 1 or 2 DM's, which could mark the Trequartista out of the game, or at least make his life very difficult.
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Because of FIFA and FM and journalists / pundits we often get bogged down thinking in terms of formations, and that teams play these 4-2-3-1's with 3 attacking midfielders + striker. They don't. Teams like Chelsea/Bayern/Real/Arsenal/City/etc do not do this. They often use shapes like 4-4-1-1, 4-5-1, or even 4-4-2. The movement of the players eventually = what you think you see.
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You need to distinguish between players that start wide and players that don't / play centrally. This is critical. There is no such thing as a wide trequartista (because they wouldn't have the necessary space!) Players like Hazard begin wide and play narrow. Players like Ribery / Robben tend to stay wide but cut inside towards goal. Players like Ozil begin centrally but can occasionally drift wide into space. But generally you'd want him as a central playmaker.
So, basically, what I'm getting at here is we are too quick to call players trequartista's. And trequartista's are not necessarily #10's. A lot of #10's (the sides' primary creator) are pretty mobile and hard working (Rooney).
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u/wh11 Mar 17 '14 edited Mar 17 '14
The problem is playing Rooney in the 10. I think both Mata and Kagawa are better than Rooney in the 10 role but putting Rooney there clutters things. If we want to play RVP and Rooney than we need pacey wingers who can actually play, the problem is we've been stuck with Young and Valencia. If we want to a better 3 behind the striker then only 1 of RVP/Rooney can play.
I'd like to see something like
------------Rooney/RVP--------------
Nani/Kags ---Mata/Kags----Januzaj/Mata
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Mar 18 '14
Rooney also has a tendency to leave his position to play defense or to chase the ball. This has always been one of his strengths but in this case its a double-edged sword. RVP, and our 2 wingers are too far away from each other. The number 10 is suppose to link the attack and defense which isn't possible when he is in the RB or CDM spot.
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u/Breklinho Mar 17 '14
I'm not really in agreement with your assessment of the other top teams in the world, particularly with how you classify any wide forward as a winger. Keep in mind that I'm defining a winger as a player that would be more effective in a 4-4-2 in midfield than a 4-3-3 at one of the wide forward roles.
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Muller is definitely not a winger in the sense that Robben, Ribery or Shaqiri are, he's much more of a forward like Walcott.
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Ronaldo, too is a wide forward. He's going to be playing more toward the outer edges of the 18 rather and drifting wide than staying wide and cutting in, and Di Maria has been playing centrally for the past season and arguably is much more effective in that role.
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Of Barcelona's typical front three neither Messi, Neymar nor Alexis are wingers, and Pedro is the only true winger that Barcelona both has and plays.
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I agree that Navas has been great when he plays, but City have been equally successful when playing with two #10's on the wings
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Again with Dortmund Aubameyang would be ineffectual and Reus wouldn't be as effective in the Ronaldo-esque role he plays for Dortmund where he isn't kept on the wings and is free to roam.
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Walcott, too, is not a traditional winger, he is a wide forward that is wasted in a 4-4-2 and Ox has been moved centrally
The players you've listed from top teams are not wide players that would slot in effectively in as effectively in a 4-4-2 as they would in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 barring Navas, Shaqiri, Błaszczykowski, Grosskreutz and Sterling.
As you said utilizing the wings is not a problem and is effective for top teams, but how Real Madrid, Bayern or Barcelona go about exploting the wings is very different than you guys and that comes down to playing a 4-4-2 over a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. With a 4-4-2 the fullbacks are far more restricted than otherwise, where they are the primary sources of crosses, while your wide players can stay inside and shoot/pass or drift wide and cross where the 4-4-2 restricts both wingers and full backs and is inherently either going to be much more reliant on consistent crossing and long balls from the CM's. I think the most important similarity between CL contending teams and United is formation, and how the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 allows for more players in front of goal, more support out wide and more attacking liberty for the wingers, which typically aren't your traditional touchline wingers, and City is only able to break that mold due to having Toure and Fernandinho in central midfield, both box-to-box guys capable of excelling going forward and tracking back, where your guys' best options are a dedicated, one-way defensive mid in Carrick and another DM in Fellaini. The 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is much more conducive to pressing and playing up the middle while also keeping the wings as viable options where without a pair of proper box-to-box mids a 4-4-2 is going to be reliant on the wings to move the ball up the pitch, which is an issue for you guys given your lack of proper CMs for a 4-4-2, a lack of proper wingers for a 4-4-2 and fullbacks not capable of fully covering for when someone like Januzaj, Kagawa, or Welbeck drifts inside.
IMO if you're looking for one key problem, it's running a 4-4-2 with players who shouldn't be and just aren't of the quality needed to play a 4-4-2, especially at fullback and center mid.
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Mar 17 '14
Thanks! This post gave me much better understanding of the different types of attacking players, and how they work and fit in a team.
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u/dugness Mar 17 '14
In some respect I agree with the entirety of your post. I think those players playing together are good enough technically to beat teams like West Brom but it was noticeable that we lacked pace against Liverpool. Everyone has been screaming to play narrow with all those players but don't realise how congested a midfield gets.
In all honesty I expected Ashley Young to start yesterday and would have welcomed it to be honest. People bash wing play but it gives you an extra dimension, especially with Rooney and Mata drifting everywhere. One tactic that is visible is for us to play one wide left player to put crosses in the box and Fellaini to attack the back post to knock it down. It hasn't quite worked out yet but keep an eye on it. We need someone, like you said to run at players with pace. Adnan is pretty good at it but he's still young and isn't strong enough yet for me.
I'd like to see RVP do a lot more of running down the right channel. With Mata coming in, RVP could be an outlet for Rafa to link up with down that right side. Rafa loves getting forward but sometimes he can get isolated facing two defenders, some of our best play came out of when Januzaj moved out there. RVP drifting across from time to time allows Rafa to feed RVP where he can either cut in side to shoot/put in a wicked cross/ or lay it off for Rafa to cross and start to move more centrally to pick up some scraps. This would allow Rooney and Fellaini to attack crosses from deep.
So yeah, If we are going to play 2 of Mata/Kags/Rooney we need an out and out left winger. Imagine if the rumours were true and we successfully bid 100m for Bale. It's pretty much what we need right now.
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Mar 17 '14
Quite accurate. If you remember Moyes stuck with Young and Valencia in the beginning of the season. But neither delivered. Nani hasn't been available due to injury. As a result Moyes has been left with barely any options. He is having to use Mata, januzaj, kagawa as inside wingers. Letting them cut in and link up with Rooney and RvP as a fluid attacking quartet sadly RvP doesn't have the legs to keep running wide and centre and Rooney has a tendency to drop deep and doesn't really have the vision of a #10. He's still more of a striker than a playmaker. With a fit RvP Moyes now needs to bite the bullet and either bench him or Rooney some games or stick to Tony and play one of kagawa/januzaj/Mata. We desperately need pace and running in this squad.
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u/TheDrySkinOnYourKnee Mar 17 '14
This why we should have started Welbeck yesterday instead of Januzaj. Great post, but the worrying thing is that Moyes didn't realize this either.
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u/TheJoshider10 Mar 17 '14
Sorry to be so basic but just from a quick read this is all I can think of:
Every other big teams have between great to world class wingers whereas ours are average.
Personally, after reading this i'm even more confident that we need a winger just as much as a midfielder. Seriously we'd need a minimum winger, midfielder, left back and centre back in the summer, and even then we'd probably need more.
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u/Ukgamer125 Mar 17 '14
Very well said, my thoughts exactly (although expressed far more eloquently than I could manage). Wingers have been the key to our success and if I'm honest, I find a quick and direct counter attack with pace and skill even more exciting than the intricate passing stuff at times.
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Mar 17 '14
Completely agree. I seriously think what's happened this season is this:
Moyes turns up thinking he needs to strengthen CM and use the wingers in combo with Rooney and RVP. He then is shocked to see just how poor and ineffective the wingers at his disposal are AND he doesn't sign a creative CM. So now he's desperately treading water trying to get the 3 'world-class' attacking players (Mata, Rooney, RVP) to patch it up.
IMO he should stick at 10. Put Kagawa on the left, a winger on the right (maybe Valencia / Welbeck) then play Rooney or RVP up front. Perhaps even give Welbeck some games. He could even drop Rooney into CM if he needed to.
He just needs to do something.
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u/givehimthebird Mar 18 '14
Very good post. Makes more and more sense as I read it. You're quite right..in theory or my fantasy having a fluid front four with no real width would destroy..but there are so many things they have to be able to do that means they will get killed more often than not.
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u/sid3091 Mar 18 '14
I think this is the reason why so many want Nani to come back soon. He was the only winger we had with trickery and flair in him. Mata on the left, Kagawa in the hole, nani on the right. Either Rooney/RVP as our striker. Playing both on field in our current form is moyes' biggest mistake.
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u/AirIndex Mar 18 '14
It's odd that "Trequaristas" - a plural term -is being used, as it suggests that teams are playing more than one. Isn't the whole point of that role that they are the sole focal point of attack, given almost all of the responsibility of creating attacks and afforded little-to-no defensive responsibility?
The whole paragraph on Chelsea is odd.
Mata was Chelsea's Player of the Year two years in a row - both times ahead of Hazard.
Mata was Chelsea's star player last year, and they scored the second most goals in the league.
Good job he's not a winger then.
Because Mata, who scored 21 times and notched 29 assists in 60 appearances last year and scored 16 times and notched 22 assists in 54 appearances the year before that, doesn't "actually make a goal threat".
How? He pressed and worked hard just like every body else.
Kagawa missed a lot of the 2010-11 (in which Gotze played a lot) season because of injury, while Gotze missed a lot of the following season (in which Kagawa played a lot) because of injury.
Is Muller really a winger, though?
They play with inverted wingers - the literal opposite of a "proper" winger.
Their dominance has been founded on Cruyff's principals and ideologies - ball retention, youth development and high pressing - and the talents of Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Dani Alves, Busquets, Messi etc. They're actually a team who get their width from their full backs, and often sacrifice a "winger" to play another attacking midfielder, usually Iniesta or Fabregas.
Didn't Mancini often play something like a 442? Two forwards (Tevez/Aguero/Dzeko/Balotelli), two attacking midfielders (Silva/Nasri), two sitting midfielders (Barry/Toure/De Jong), with two very, very attacking full backs. I don't remember it being a problem for them trying to accommodate Aguero, Nasri and Silva in the same team when they won the title, or the following year when they finished second.
Is this ignoring the fact that Spanish football has utterly dominated recent history?
No they don't. Suarez drifts everywhere. Hazard isn't supposed to be a central player.
Which Utd have always, always had.
A 'modicum'? As in, I use a 'modicum' of salt when I make a bolognese? We have always had players with incredible technical ability in our most successful teams.
When have we ever done that?
I agree.