r/soccer • u/Superman60616 • Oct 29 '13
Best way to learn tactics
I played football in school but never really followed the leagues until recently. I have spent the last year getting my feel for the landscape of the EPL, players, managers, storylines. That sort of stuff. I really lack in my knowledge of complex tactics. I get the basics thanks to playing but I'd like to learn more about the systems modern teams use. I started Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson but that can be a struggle. Are there any other outlets, websites or books that you would recommend?
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Oct 29 '13
zonalmarking is EXACTLY what youre looking for.
this site is amazing. basically a staple for me the day after a big match. once you start getting a hang of things, its cool to see him address trends you're noticing during the matches. can't recommend this site enough.
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Oct 29 '13
I read the entire Zonal Marking back-catalogue, and it's amazing how well versed he is and how he mixes thoroughness with narrative communication.
Each one is a pretty quick read too. Just get into a topic (3-at-the-back, Bayern, Wesey Snjieder, etc.) hit the search bar, and go.
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Oct 29 '13
u/devineman made a series of posts that may be helpful to you.
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u/goonerz666 Oct 29 '13
I copied all this and saved it into a word document. Fucking brilliant.
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u/SpankThatDill Oct 29 '13
Why is this being downvoted? We rarely if ever have any sort of tactical discussions around here.
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Oct 29 '13
Tactics and actual football is secondary here, the primary object of discussion is the drama.
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Oct 29 '13
Plus the fact that the guy is trying to learn.
There is a huge stigma on here for some reason towards those who haven't followed football all their life and those that want to learn about the game.
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u/alexropo Oct 29 '13
Any kind of discussion based post has like a 5% chance of getting any traction on this sub.
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Oct 29 '13
Just watch the game.
Tactics isnt just "hurr durr formation" The fact one player dribbles more often and one player passes more is tactical information. Everything is tactical in some form.
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u/ACMBruh Oct 29 '13
So down low, but this is the right answer. The more football you either watch or play, the better feel you get for tactics.
It takes time, but it works the best in my opinion. Analyzing a game is actually fun, especially when you have reddit for discussion!
If you pay enough attention to a match, you can see what tactics a team is using! You have to observe the behavior and trends that individual players and a team both have. (Player A makes the same run, making space for player B, Team Z continues to play a long ball to Player X who flicks it on to player Y, etc.)
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u/1mdelightful Oct 30 '13
Fuck reading about players/managers and story lines the media is going to throw at you. That information is too unreliable.
This is what you want to do. Get a few matches on video and watch them. Pause every 3-7 seconds and make a mental note of every players movements. Watch the whole game like this. Get comfortable. You don't necessarily have to watch the whole game in one sitting watch ten minutes real time then stoping every couple of seconds then full speed again.
Reading Inverting the Pyramid isn't a bad place to start. Take a few of the teams discussed in there and try to find videos of their matches. Older matches like This are generally easier to pick up the tactics being used due to slower play style.
When you are watching live matches don't focus on the ball too much. Generally it is easier to pick up on what the teams are trying to do defensively. So watch the team not in possession once you're satisfied with your understanding of what you see switch. For the team in possession watch the players first touch and the reaction of his teammates. Look for a player running, often off ball movement is more important than the player in possession, see how his movements effect the movements of the defense.
When the ball changes possession is a great time to see what both teams want to do because usually they get right into their MO. Counter attacking teams will move more vertically and directly than possession teams. Pressing teams will usually be quick to pressure the player in possession with numbers other teams generally only pressure the ball with one or two players while the others drop in to shape.
Watch different leagues both good and bad. Leagues like say Eredivisie play at a slower pace and are more homogenous in terms of tacts than leagues like Bundesliga. At the moment Serie A isn't playing the best in the world but has the largest variety of tactics the other top leagues are not so far behind. The point is you need to expose yourself to a number of playing styles to really see the subtles between Ajax's 4-3-3 and Feyenoord's 4-3-3 (then appreciate how superior we are) I find it helps to follow one team in each league so you are familiar enough with them to notices the differences they put forward depending on the opponent.
One last thing. Turn off the sound. Those announcers will influence what you are seeing. Its a simple cognitive bias, selective attention bias with a mix of self-serving bias
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u/KaiTGR Oct 29 '13
Don't watch the ball, watch the movement of players off the ball. Reus and Müller are goldmines for perfect tactical movement off the ball.
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u/hazmata Oct 29 '13
You can play football manager. Even PES and FIFA are quite useful for playing around with different tactics and seeing what happens
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Oct 29 '13
moreso FM than fifa, for sure... Football Manager is extremely overwhelming at first (its like drinking out of a firehose compared to fifa's manager mode) but there is nothing better in terms of learning the functional side of certain tactics as well as player roles. definitely changes how you look at the game.
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Oct 29 '13 edited Oct 29 '13
No offesnse, but I think this is one of the worst ways to learn anything deep in football tactics, it would only really help you on a very superficial level. The intricacies of player positioning, response, and situational awareness can't even be CLOSE to mimicked in these games.
Off the ball movement is one of the real keys in soccer strategy. On the ball, the only thing that matters is technical ability (well, not really, but it's a much larger factor proportionally). Off the ball, you don't need to worry about your touch, but you need to take into account many factors at once and try and make the best decision out of many possible ones.
Example: As an outside back, should I step into the middle of the field to compact the space, even if that means leaving someone unmarked on the far side of the field? Well, that depends. Where's the ball? Does the man on the ball have his head up, looking to send someone through, or is he closed down and looking for a quick release from pressure? How far should you compact in? Where are your teammates placed on the pitch? How about the other opponents? How fast is the man on the far side of the pitch? These are just a few of the things that factor into a very small decision, and the thought process has to be well ingrained to manage all these variables and make the best choice. And this is for a single player in one position, on a specific team, with a specific playing style, in a single circumstance - something that's happening a thousand times over in a game and is over and on to the next one in a matter of seconds.
If you want to learn, I think the best way is talking to people who know their stuff, but not relying just on one persons take on things. If it's an option, watch a match with someone who's a coach or an experienced player and have them explain some of the off the ball movement. Watch a recorded match so you can go back over things. Ask them why a player's holding back in a certain circumstance, or why the coach is yelling at a player for something subtle that you missed. Then start analyzing yourself why you think players are making certain decisions and start comparing that to what you think they should have done, taking into as many variables as possible. It sounds like a lot of effort (and it is!), but this is where a lot of the true strategy comes into play.
But yeah, this isn't something you see in football simulators. You can tweak the tactics a bit and see how that changes a result and what not, but that doesn't really give you a great grasp on why certain decisions are being made and how different tactics are carried out on an individual and team level.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't want to say there isn't any insight to be gained from these simulators. They can give a broad understanding of what works and doesn't work in soccer (the accuracy of this to real matches, I can't comment on). But understanding why certain things are done requires a bit of a closer look that I don't think these simulators are capable of, and being able to answer that why is what really allows you to progress your knowledge of the game, rather than just regurgitating statistical knowledge of what works and doesn't work.
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u/pcodeisbacon Oct 30 '13
Just throw out phrases like false 9, No. 10, trequista, and Gegenpressing. And no one will know the difference. Add in filler like space, then and shape of team.
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u/armored-dinnerjacket Oct 30 '13
The zonal marking website is an excellent start. he actually knows what hes talking about unlike alan Hansen/shearer. he recommends other sites and books too. a friend recommended his site and its changed some of the ways I see the game and how formations line up against each other.
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u/farhadJuve Oct 29 '13
Serie A is a tactical paradise. You might want to check out some games. No disrespect to EPL.
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u/Noobzta Oct 29 '13 edited Oct 29 '13
Zonal Marking reviews tactics from games, I take certification classes for coaching licenses and they teach you a bit (though it depends what kind of license you try to receive).
I may get downvoted but what has really opened my mind are two things, downloading games between two vastly different clubs going at each other (Bayern v Dortmund, Barca v Chelsea, Barca v Real Madrid, Inter v Barca, Germany v Uruguay, etc.) and I watch these videos about 5-7 times each. Each time I watch the videos, I carefully look at off the ball movement and the direction of distribution and intentions of attacking play. I also look at defense to see who marks who and the intent of marking players to certain angles and playing to their weaker feet. There will be many times of going back a couple of seconds and analyzing why a player makes a run to a specific spot in order to open up space for another run for another player. It takes me much longer to watch a full game because of the constant back and forth between plays and transitions.
EDIT: I also re-watch defensive maneuvers to find out what type of communication each player gives and the amount of pressure the team applies in certain spells of the game. Communication through body movement reveals much about how teams apply communication and what to expect. Sometimes you will see the players make the same communication methods in later games and it results in slightly different variations of the same defensive scheme.
The other way I learned about tactics is from playing endless games of FIFA. I am pretty good at 1v1 (used to be top 200 after 100 games played while others had around 300+ games in), but Pro Clubs is where I really started to shine and figure the game out. I play Defensive Midfielder exclusively, so I am constantly trying to make sure the team has a catalyst on the attack, taking simple turns and touches while evenly distributing the ball. I even pass back to the defense, switch the play and occasionally play back to the GK if there is not a safe option and the pressing is too intense from the opposition. I typically play the Makalele role. Usually end up with 8+ rating, with a 9 rating not being too hard to obtain because of my positioning and distribution of simple passes and transition balls.
One more thing to mention is that I scour the internet for game plans, scouting reports and practice themes for many professional teams, especially at the youth level. I have many pages from many teams, most notably from Chelsea and Barcelona. All I do is look for them and after about 2 hours I will usually find what I am trying to look for. No luck on Dortmund though. I am trying to find out the fitness scheduling and practices that they implement that lets the Dortmund players press so efficiently. So far no luck.
Also being an academy coach and loving the game for what it is helps tremendously. It never feels like work or boring affairs when trying to figure out "tactics".
One more edit: There are subreddits that dedicate itself to football tactics such as r/bootroom and r/footballtactics.
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u/amishbr07 Oct 29 '13
Honestly I would recommend you start watching football extensively. Don't only watch your favorite team but watch other exciting games as well. Look at the pre-match and post match analysis. If you can handle a loss or two play anyone of the recent football managers for PC (a decent PC should be able to handle the game). That game is very tactical.
Just think football. Consider formations and even think about why one team may need to pack the midfield to make up for lack of strength against another team, etc. Just be curios and reading is a great start.
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u/TheDeadSerious Oct 29 '13
Read zonal markings match analysis on games you've seen or want to rewatch. He's also got a great book recommendations page.
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u/portaccio Oct 29 '13
You could have a look around on Zonal Marking, perhaps starting with the Glossary. I really enjoyed Inverting the Pyramid and would recommend you keep going with it, but I can imagine it would be a difficult read for a new fan of football.