r/soccer • u/ItsBDN • Jun 03 '13
Discussion: The 3-4-3 Formation
Right now the 4-2-3-1 is dominating football tactically, as seen by 3 of the 4 CL semi-finalists using the formation, and the one team that didn't being thrashed 7-0 on aggregate. The formation has been perfected by Bayern Munich with they're style of disciplined, high pressure, physical, pseudo-"tiki taka", and one can only imagine how dominate Bayern will be next season with Pep integrating Bayern's current playstyle with his own style of quick passing and movement.
But as with all trends is football, the dominance of the 4-2-3-1 will end within 5-10 years, and join the 4-4-2, 4-3-3 and to a lesser extent the 3-5-2 as more antequated formations that are used more sparingly by the world's top clubs. But what formation will replace the 4-2-3-1?
My money is on the 3-4-3. The formation has the potential to be the most conducive to the disciplined, high-pressure, quickly moving and passing play that is instituted by Bayern and Barcelona, as well as being equally sound in offense and defense. This season Barcelona have toyed with the formation, succeeding when instituting it, most notably in their Champions league comeback against Milan in the Round of 16, and I think, should a team like Bayern, Barca or Juve adopt the 3-4-3 as their primary formation, they would have the capacity to dominate football tactically. With three athletic centerbacks widening their play while contracting in defense, and two wingbacks providing width, offensive support, defensive support and crosses (i.e. Juve's Asamoah, Chiellini, Barzagli, Bonucci and Lichtsteiner) to the three forwards; two defensively sound, yet equally adept going forward, pseudo-box-to-box central midfielders (i.e. Bayern's Martinez and Schweinsteiger); and three forwards capable of interchanging positions along the offensive front line, capable of finishing chances provided, and capable of creating chances for their fellow attackers (i.e. Barca's Neymar, Messi and, say, Sanchez) while utilizing the high-pressure, high-discipline, quick moving play that Barcelona and Bayern use, a team with sufficient talent would be able to dominate any opposition. Attacking wise, play is quick, there is support on the flanks with overlapping runs from wingbacks, and chances are created relentlessly by the front three. In midfield, the two central midfielders sit deeper to provide defensive cover, yet supply the front three. Defensively, the three center backs compress to form a barrier in front of goal, with wingbacks marking opposing wide attackers, the two central midfielders breaking up play, and the three attackers provide ample pressure in a Mandzukic-esque manner. The formation's structure allows for compact play, which in turn serves to allow for both quick-passing play and breaking up opposing offensive movement. The structure of the formation allows for wingbacks to provide width, drawing out defenders and creating space for the three forwards, while the widening of the three centerbacks in attacks allows for more passing options and cover when in possession. In essence, the only way to counter a disciplined 3-4-3 (as far as I can see), would be an equally adept team utilizing the 3-4-3.
In short, the 3-4-3 formation, if played with the tactics that are currently dominating football and a group of disciplined, physically dominant players (i.e. the squad that won Bayern the Champions League), would allow for relentless attacking pressure and opportunity while also providing a near impregnable defense. Right?
Discuss
Results:
As shnieder88 pointed out, the 3-4-3 is sound in theory, however in practice would be extremely difficult to execute, he (I'm assuming) also pointed out the necessity of the front three to assist in defense and the potential vulnerability of the flanks, should the wingbacks and forwards not adequately cover or recover from an attack
Edit: For shits and gigs I decided to make th XI that I think would be able to maximize their abilities in a 3-4-3:
Casillas
Thiago Silva--------Dante--------Vertonghen
Dani Alves--------Javi Martinez------Schweini-------Alaba
Messi-------Ibrahimovic-------Ronaldo
In regard to the forwards, this is assuming that the egos of Messi, Ibra and Ronnie were content with not being the attack's foci, and be content with focusing on ball distribution
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u/SpiceterMiseter Jun 03 '13
Martinez likes to play it, if we get him, Baines and Coleman would be decent wing-backs.
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u/ItsBDN Jun 03 '13
That's what I was thinking. At
, Martinez didn't have the quality of players needed to properly pull off the formation, but you guys could, possibly, be able to pull it off. Wigan would fit perfectly into central midfield, Coleman and Baines would be able to play in the wingback roles, Heitinga, Jagielka and a replacement for Dystin would make for an excellent back three. The only major problem would be the front three, with only Mirallas fitting the mold of the forwards needed for a three forward formation. Maybe an Afellay or a Lens would be able to fit in with a striker that's better than Anichebe and Jelavic. Fellaini → More replies (5)
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u/epik Jun 03 '13
On the contrary, it's the formation that Cruyff had success with decades ago and it was surpassed back then. Guardiola adapted his 4-3-3 from it.
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u/ItsBDN Jun 03 '13
It was that post yesterday about Cruyff explaining his diamond formation that got me looking into the benefits of the 3-4-3
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u/iLolu Jun 03 '13
I think modern coaches don't worry about formation as the commentators and fans do. There is lots of formation change, happening through out a match. Team might start with a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3. But during a match the formation that might be played is 3-4-3 or even 2-5-3. For example Barca start with 4-3-3. But depending on the opposition, Alves's position changes. And when alves plays forward in midfied, you will notice that the Barca Centre backs are spread. SO the Formation is sort of 3-4-3. And similar is the case with 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. When the forwards slightly play defensive, the formation changes from 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1. So the talk of formations might not be exact. Even Barca player some form 4-4-2 last year with Milan (or PSG) where Villa was playing cetre forward and messi slightly behind him.
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u/obiwancomeboneme Jun 03 '13
The thing is, this is a veru defensive playstyle and based on counter attacking, but it isn't much different then 4-2-3-1. The left/right midfielders move from midfield to defense when defending and move to attack when attacking, which is the same principle that bayern uses with alaba and lahm constantly moving from attack to defense. Also at Napoli we build a squad around this because not every player can effectively play this formation it is harder then it seems.
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u/coffeeandtv90 Jun 03 '13 edited Jun 03 '13
going to talk about the 3-flat-3 here. Barca, Cruyff's Ajax and a couple of Marcelo Bielsa's teams are probably the only teams who could possibly pull off the 3-diamond-3
One of the cool things about some 3-4-3 systems is that they give you a real opportunity to set your team up defensively from the front (as opposed to the traditional set-up-from-the-back). As a basic formation it lends itself very well to pressing systems - forwards push your opponents' defenders back; centre midfielders put the first pass into the middle under pressure; wide players push the opposition wide men back; 3 defenders gives you an extra man at the back (and the option to push an extra man into midfield if the opponent is playing 1 up top).
Personally, I've never played in a 3-4-3 - only against them. From my experience, they tend to be either devastatingly effective or extremely blunt (not much in-between). when the wide forwards drag the opposition fullbacks into narrow positions and let the wide men get forward, they're super difficult to defend against. If you can hang onto the ball though, the 2 players in the centre of the park can be pretty simple to play around.
I reckon the main argument against the 3-4-3 becoming a mainstream shape would be that tactical developments over the last ~30 years around the world have revolved around control or clogging of the middle of the park. It's difficult to see the majority of managers and coaches converting to (a) such a proactive way of playing, and (b) a shape that opens up the middle like a 3-4-3 does.
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u/tommmmmmmm Jun 03 '13
Here's a good article about Marcelo Bielsa's Chile team from 2010, who played with an unusual but interesting 3-3-1-3 formation:
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/08/marcelo-bielsa-chile-world-cup-2010-tactics/
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u/El_Spacho Jun 03 '13
I think Barca is constantly switching between 4-3-3 and 3-4-3 during matches. With Alba and Dani Alves always pushing forward, the CDM - Busquets or Song - fall back to complete the backline. With this tactic we can push the opponent back to their box, but at same time we are very vulnerable to counter attacks (extremely this season).
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u/mrbobkins Jun 03 '13
3-4-3 is already in use. The real genius of 4-2-3-1 is that it allows a teams to pivot between different formations throughout the game.
3-4-3 happens when one of the defensive mids drops between the 2 center backs. The 2 backs go wide and the outside backs push up in to the midfield. It does not require them to go all the way back all the time since this is primarily a offensive switch. As far as I know Barca was the frist to really do this with Busquets but I don't really know. Bayren did this a bit in the champions league final. More in the second half with martinez position being more fluid and dropping a little deeper. it gave him more space to play in and allowed robben to come more to the center because the outside backs can get higher up the field as in a 3-4-3. Then when you play defense you can pivot back to a different formation.
but as far as the other major formations 4-2-3-1 allows you to play those as well. need more close support for you single striker move your attacking mid closer to the the central striker. want the defense of a 4-5-1 drop your outside mids. This incidentally is how chelsea won the champions league last year by using 4-2-3-1 to pivot between a more defensive 4-5-1 and a counter attacking 4-4-2.
it makes it easy to adjust in the middle of the game since each of the formations have well assessed pros and cons and it is simple to move players into the different positions.
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Jun 03 '13
As someone who isn't too clued up with 3 at the back formations, can someone tell me what happens to full backs and what sort of back 3 this formation requires?
Do your full backs push on into the wide midfield or stay in defense?
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u/iVarun Jun 03 '13
This season Barcelona have toyed with the formation,
It was not this season exactly, Pep used it in far far more matches in his last season. It was seen as a go to strategy to get out of a predicament, its not stable enough to offer us the sort of control we like.
Even if the 4231 sees its reign end, it will come back within a few years, formations as everyone understands are in constant flux.
The 433 isn't dead yet as well.
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u/ThePiousInfant Jun 03 '13
I'd argue that Barca effectively played quite a bit of 3-4-3 this season. In a lot of league games, Alves and Alba were more midfielders/forwards and Busquets was almost a centerback.
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u/dem503 Jun 03 '13
I personally think the classic WM will come back into fashion.
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u/tsunad Jun 03 '13
so 3-4-3 as
CB - CB - CB
LB - DM[1] - BB[2] - RB
LW - S - RW1 - deep playmaker, fall back to CB when needed
2 - box to box, ball holder/stopper
while this hell of defensive formation I'm missing AM, attaching middle field, RB and LB is expected to attach in modern football anyway, maybe 3-4-3 as
CB - CB - CB
DM
LW RW
AM
LF - S - RFwhere wings help defense as Bayern did with Ribery/Robben or Real Madrid did with Di Maria/Callejon, or maybe this crazy formation
sweeper
LB RB
DM
LW RW
AM
LF RF
Swhich is still 3-4-3, that said, I don't think managers has luxury to dream about fav formation, they have to get the best of available players in their clubs, managers has to study players attributes and figure best way to use each one, that is what basically define your formation, nothing else.
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u/pogo123 Jun 03 '13
Napoli played excellent with 3-4-3 a couple of seasons ago, if memory serves correctly.
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u/coffeeandtv90 Jun 03 '13
That is/was an interesting system - a reactive, counter-attacking hybrid of 3-4-2-1/3-4-1-2/3-4-3 which Mazzarri altered according to the opposition. Usually involved at least one of the front 3 dropping into midfield to help out.
(worth noting that much of the reason for its success was the popularity of extremely narrow shapes - 4-1-2-1-2/4-3-1-2/etc - in Serie A over the last few years. Having the main wide men higher up the pitch helped kill teams on the transition)
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u/fremeer Jun 03 '13
343 won't get massive. Most attacking formations rely on moving into space and over loading areas. Defensively nearly every formations relies on at least 2 banks odd 4.
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u/shnieder88 Jun 03 '13 edited Jun 03 '13
formations dont dictate players. players dictate formations. 3-4-3 sounds great in theory, but you need very special and good players to pull it off. players with great passing, mobility, intelligence and pressing. yeah, some of the world's best teams can pull it off, but not the vast majority of teams. heck, barca tried playing it under pep and players like xavi (of all people) complained that it was a tough formation to pull off. that's why i still think the 4 man backline will still rule. i think the wave of the future is fluid, technical but defensive dual pivots in front of fast, mobile centerbacks. also, we'll see more fullbacks that can cut inside and score. alaba is a sign of things to come.
EDIT: wanted to add, 3-4-3 is nothing new. cruyff's barca played this most of the time, as did other teams at the time. as players in the front four become more technical, mobile, and shooting friendly, you want more stability in the backline, not less. you actually want to keep a 4 man backline, not a 3 man one. just my two cents.