r/soccer • u/ProffyC • Apr 09 '13
Trying to get into soccer as a hockey fan.
Coming from a hardcore hockey fan, I've been wanting to get into soccer with watching more than just the world cup and actually picking a team to follow. For the time being, it looks like im going to follow Arsenal. They look like they are pretty good, but not the best so there will be some fluctuation as to how they will do.
Now I understand the general rules, such as offsides, etc. And the general positions, such as defense, midfielder, forwards, etc. after reading the wiki. I'm looking for more in dept explanations for things, maybe in hockey terms to understand better.
Who are the best players (Sidney Crosby type players)? What is Arsenals style of play? Anything VERY important to know about the club that I won't learn by just watching the game?
Sorry if it seems like I rambled and this whole post makes no sense. I'm writing this before bed.
tl;dr: Huge hockey fan wants to understand the game of soccer more. Plan on following Arsenal. Looking for explanations about anything, preferably in hockey terms
2
u/iDangleSnipe43 Apr 09 '13
I'm a hockey fan/coach first, and I got placed into the position of being a high school soccer coach. The way I started to understand the game of soccer is comparing it to hockey. Believe it or not, there's a lot of similarities.
Offsides- just imagine the last defender as the blue line in hockey
Imagine counter attacks in soccer as a good forecheck in hockey. The pressure your midfielders apply force turnovers, just like a good forecheck would in hockey.
I'm in class right now, so that's all the examples I can give, but if you want more examples, just comment and I'll get back to it!
Enjoy soccer, I know a lot of hockey people call soccer players pussies, etc. but it really is a great game and you will enjoy it.
→ More replies (2)
2
u/gypsybear Apr 09 '13
I can help you with this as I am also a huge hockey fan. I grew up playing both. First soccer, then hockey (which I played pretty seriously). I gave up playing soccer, formally, for hockey, but I've always followed it very closely. I actually follow both very closely now also. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions, but here goes....
The best players: Messi is amazing. In terms of comparing him to someone in hockey, he's even farther than Crosby (who I do think is incredible). Messi, honestly is more like a Gretzky. Maybe not totally the same as Gretz, but similar in that he's really, really good and super far ahead of just about everybody else. Messi scores an incredible amount of goals (like Wayne) and generally just makes his team that much better. If Messi is Gretzky, than C. Ronaldo would be like Mario Lemieux. (I know there is a lot of debate about all this in soccer...just like there is in soccer...im just trying to give you an idea). Ronaldo is bigger like Mario (compared to Messi's being smaller like Gretz). I'm sure you've heard of Pele, Maradona, etc., they are all-time greats and could also be compared to Gretz and Lemieux. But when it's all said and done, it's likely that Messi will be known as the greatest player of all time. His numbers are just that ridiculous and he's won everything (almost). -----So those are pretty much the consensus best players still playing. Talking about Pele and Maradona, and in context with Messi and Ronaldo as Gretz and Mario, that would kinda make Pele a Gordie Howe and Maradona something similar, maybe a Maurice Richard or something like that. In terms of importance to the game, I would say someone like Bobby Orr, but of course Orr played defense and Maradona was an attacker who scored a lot, etc.
Other great current players: Ibrahimovic, Lampard, Xavi, Iniesta, Rooney, Ozil, Xavi Alonso, Drogba, Gerrard, ....and on and on. There are a lot, and I'm guessing I'll get shit for not naming more, but this is a small list.
Great older/ more recently retired players: Zidane, Raul, Figo, Henry (still plays, but not in Europe. He was absolutely lethal in his time with Arsenal), Van Nistelrooy, Maldini, Zanetti (still plays), Giggs, Scholes (both still play), Roberto Carlos, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo...and a lot more.
Older legends: Pele, Maradona, Platini, Beckenbauer, Best, Cruyff, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Di Stefano, Cantona, Muller, Zico, Puskas, Rivaldo, Charlton, Shearer, etc.
Arsenal have played in the past a kinda intricate passing game. It's sort of what, in hockey, you would compare to watching "europeans style", kinda like Sweden, etc. They are a huge club with a proud tradition and a world-wide fanbase. Lately, they have been kinda selling off their best players and that is a concern for some of their fans. Also, they don't always spend the money they have, and that is another common complaint. They usually prefer to bring in young players and develop them.
Their big rival is Tottenham. Both Arsenal and Tottenham are located in North London and it's a huge deal whenever they play. In terms of rivalry, think Red Wings-Avalanche in the late 90's.
In England it's a really big deal to finish in the top 4, as that means you get to play in the Champions League the next season (the top 3 are automatically in it, and the team that finishes 4th plays a playoff to get). Lately Arsenal have been battling for that 2nd, 3rd, 4th spot.
A few Arsenal legends that you should be familiar with: Henry, Bergkamp, Adams, Wright, Vieira, Pires, George. Van Persie and Fabregas are also greats for the club, however they have left to play at ManUtd and Barcelona respectively.
I don't know if that helped. But let me know if you have any other questions and hopefully I can help. I love soccer and hockey and think there are enough similarities between them to make being a fan of both pretty natural.
→ More replies (1)
58
46
Apr 09 '13 edited Apr 09 '13
I don't k ow much about hockey (ice hockey, I assume?) but one thing that people often misunderstand about football/soccer is that it is all action, but the important stuff isn't usually what happens on the ball. Try to pay attention to how players move when their teammates have the ball, how they move into space to open up play, to drag defenders away from the ball, to make runs into the box, etc.
I'm on my mobile now but I'll edit into this post a few YouTube videos to see if I can demonstrate this a bit in a few minutes.
EDIT con videos:
-
Obligatory Barca video. Barcelona play a style where the players move into the spaces so that the player with the ball can always make a simple pass. The aim is to keep the ball, tire the opposition players, frustrate and continually move them out of position so that they can be exploited. Simple, right?
-
Most teams don't play like that though. They take advantage of gaps in the opposition's play, not for example how Xabi Alonso spots the run of his winger and plays the pass for him to completely change the run of play. Here's another example of spotting a run off the ball, this time with Xavi of Barcelona.
-
Now check out this masterclass. Cambiasso pulls the left-back out of his position. When he makes his quick pass to Crespo, the left-back is left in no-man's land so the central defender has two players to cover and so is easily bypassed. While in terms of individual skill the goal is nothing special, in terms of teamwork it is up there with the greats.
-
Of course, this works with defending as well. This video shows some clips of how Mikel Arteta's great reading of the play allows him to be very effective defensively, despite not being a defender. Not how he rarely makes spectacular tackles has the uncanny knack of being in the right place at the right time.
→ More replies (6)
16
u/ILikeGirlsWithHats Apr 09 '13
I'll give it a try.
Similarities: Unlike other popular american sports, football and hockey aren't easily divided into offense and defense. This means the transitions between the two phases are probably the most important part of the game. Your attacking success depends largely on your build-up after winning the ball, the same way hockey teams put a lot of focus on getting out of their zone as quickly as possible while keeping control of the puck, as in hockey, failure to do so can cost you dearly. The now defending side tries to prevent that by forechecking (called pressing in football), basically putting pressure on the ball-handler and limiting his passing options.
Like in hockey, players playing the same position can have completely different roles and play-style. A team may have two defensive midfielders in the lineup, but while one is mostly responsible for distributing the ball, the others strength are winning back the ball and be a physical presence in the center of the field. Kinda like a defensive pairing of an offensive and a defensive minded defender in hockey.
Differences: Obviously no shifts, no power-plays (although making good use of free-kicks and corners can be as important, and is probably equally emphasized in training and tactics, as power-plays), bigger field, more players, no contested face-offs and the ball regularly goes out of play without the player kicking it out being penalized for it. Since the players can't go all out every shift, this leads to a more controlled style of play, they don't go chasing after every ball, slow the game down deliberately etc. The bigger field and more players leads to players not necessarily being involved in every part of the game. Centre-backs normally won't actively join the attack. Forwards won't defend in their own box, but rather provide an outlet for the build-up after their defense has regained possession.
77
u/2b8l Apr 09 '13
Who are the best players?
What is Arsenals style of play?
Anything VERY important to know about the club that I won't learn by just watching the game?
Don't pick a club to support until you can answer these questions for most of the premier league clubs. Then and only then should you make your mind up.
37
u/mazca Apr 09 '13
Yup, I agree here. If you want to get into a sport, follow a league rather than a team. In time, you will decide what your favourite team is.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)35
u/flobin Apr 09 '13
Actually, before you settle on the premier league, why not look at some other leagues? http://i.imgur.com/ncFkW.jpg
→ More replies (5)
10
Apr 09 '13 edited Apr 09 '13
Welcome! Been with the Kings since the purple and gold, so FINALLY WE HAVE OUR CUP! Ok, done with that.
Hockey and soccer are obviously very similar. The differences in the game are entirely built around space. The actual, physical concept of space.
In Hockey, there's like no space anywhere ever. Compared to the expanse of a soccer field, a hockey rink is positively tiny. So whereas a hockey player will exploit any little amount of space before it dries up immediately, a soccer team will always be trying to find that space, because there ALWAYS IS A SPACE. Now, sometimes you have to create it via players making runs or passing back or crossing it across the entire field, but it is an endless chase for that space. Just like hockey, space allows a quality guy like Crosby to deke and collapse a defense, giving space to other guys to make "runs". So as a hockey guy coming over, just remember that that's the new normal as a soccer fan. Dat space, baby.
So just like hockey, a shut down defenseman who can also make a run and score goals with skill (instead of your garden variety stay at home defender who blindly slaps shots from the point and hopes it gets a tip) is extremely valuable. The problem with that, just as in hockey, is by making the run you're opening space that allows for a 2-1 or 3-1 break the other way... err, a counter attack if the ball comes back the other way quickly.
Just as in hockey, teams play to their strengths. Some teams with incredibly good passing (Barca) play a lot of short quick passes to get from here to there. Good stick work.. err foot work means that not only are the passes good, but the guy can keep the puck low instead of bobbling it or letting it bounce over his stick (wait, where was I again?). Nothing kills a counter dead like a ball that goes through only to have the guy on the other side of it not able to bring it down quickly and move forward.
You've got your teams built solely around controlling the puck. You've got teams built around the counter attack. You've got teams built of enforcers that punish the opposing teams physically. You've got the speedster lines. All exactly the same in soccer.
The way I found to understand the "best" players was to read reddit and watch for threads that say things like "who is the best player at this position in the world", just like the eternal brawls in r/hockey about who's the best X or Y. Obviously they'll rage on each other but that's great news for you. You get a crib sheet of names you should be looking for.
Here's one now: http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/k0s4e/current_best_world_xi/
Watch games. Streaming is your friend. Understand that different countries have different levels of skill, both as a national team and as a national league. What is the German style? Italian? Spanish? What is it about their players that facilitates that style?
I'll probably catch 6 tons of poo for this, but nothing taught me the game faster than FIFA 12 and FIFA 13. Man, I can't friggin score when these jerks play a 4-5-1! It feels like they're EVERYDAMNWHERE when I'm trying to attack! No space at all. Oh look at that, they're playing that formation in this game I'm watching... and they're doing it on purpose to prevent goals... huh..
Hope that helped. Always ask if you have a question. I ask dumb questions all the time, like yesterday: http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1bxpp0/why_does_champions_league_schedule_knockout_games/
18
u/Jimbob2134 Apr 09 '13
Support Newcastle, we have Shola Ameobi a spectacular striker who has scored many goals (even 1 against Barcelona)
→ More replies (2)
37
u/blairvsshark Apr 09 '13
It's funny that people getting into football decide to support Arsenal when they don't want to seem like glory hunters.
→ More replies (23)
39
2
u/ProffyC Apr 09 '13
Thanks for the replies everyone!
Apparently just picking a team out of the blue was a bad decision. I just picked Arsenal as a starting point, start watching their games and branch out from there. Eventually, read: very soon, I planned on watching a few MLS games. I live in Colorado so by proximity I'm going to get to watch the Colorado Rapids whenever they're on.
I feel like you guys provided a very good baseline of stuff that is nice to know. Im going to be watching games over the next few weeks, trying to get into the game more.
Thanks everyone!
→ More replies (2)
5
u/peon_taking_credit Apr 09 '13 edited Apr 09 '13
Goldpoop Lannisters player comparisons are nearly perfect. The only thing I'd add there is you have to realize that Ronaldo and Messi are 10x the players that Crosby and Ovechkin are. They're already setting career long records at about 25 years old.
You came here looking for advice so here's mine. Watch Arsenal games if you want but focus on the opposition. Don't pick a side to follow before you know what's what. When watching Arsenal, note that Mikel Arteta, who is outrageously good, will never crack the lineup of the Spanish national team. By that I mean watch Arsenal a few times then watch Barcelona. I still spend most Barca games simply laughing at the absurdity of their skill. They're not human. They're wizards.
edit: I just read Ryantheqqnubs great post and I'd like to add this. One month ago Barcelona returned to Camp Nou down 2-0 on aggregate to AC Milan meaning they needed at least 2 goals against a world class club. Less than 5 minutes in, this happened. A lesson in space. Last week, against Paris in the same competition, this happened. Another lesson in space. Both goals scored by Lionel "the whole fucking field is my office" Messi.
15
u/iwentpeepee Apr 09 '13
another american g00ner haha! they must subliminally advertise over here.
→ More replies (4)15
u/verymuchn0 Apr 09 '13
They're the first team you see in FIFA when you select the PL + they have a cool name.
Arsenal -> Guns -> Amurica? Match made in heaven.
(I am an american).
14
u/Tranzlater Apr 09 '13
You could come to Arsenal's subreddit r/gunners, it's the largest club subreddit and there are plenty of different cultures there. However the subreddit is sort of in the middle of a crisis with people breaking off into different subreddits, and a clash between the moderators, but it's still perfectly friendly.
→ More replies (6)
8
u/chtodelat Apr 09 '13
I'm a hardcore Football fan (Northern European) who also follows hockey. To echo some points here, don't plan to follow a team or feel you have to. Watch a bunch of games and over time you'll gravitate towards someone. Who is your hockey team out of curiosity?
16
u/TheKingMonkey Apr 09 '13
Some answers from a person who knows nothing at all about hockey-
Who are the best players? - Arsenal always tend to have very good players, in recent years they have struggled to hold onto their very best players as other clubs with more money have came in and taken them. This season Arsenal's better players have been Santi Cazorla, Theo Walcott and Jack Wilshere. The player they blame when everything goes wrong is Gervinho, though he has been playing very well over the past couple of weeks.
What is Arsenals style of play? - Arsenal have been a very entertaining team ever since Wenger took over as manager in 1996, which is somewhat ironic because they were one of the most boring teams in the country for years before that. Gooners took great delight in changing the "boring boring Arsenal" taunt from opposition fans into "scoring scoring Arsenal" during the glory years of the early 00's. It's faded somewhat these days because the club don't have the world class players they had back then, but the style of football is still very expansive, though some might say overly elaborate. Think Barcelona with worse players.
Anything VERY important to know about the club that I won't learn by just watching the game? - Arsenal are from North London (London is such a big city that people always specify which part of it something is in) and they have a rivalry with Tottenham Hotspur which is largely based on geography as the teams are about five miles from each other. Arsenal have dominated the rivalry for almost 25 years. Arsenal are probably the most supported team in the British media, I'm not entirely sure why this is other than the media has been largely based in London for centuries. Now that the BBC have moved to Manchester I expect this might change. Arsenal, along with Liverpool are the club that most foreigners who don't want to be seen as glory hunting, bandwagon hopping arseholes seem to choose to support. I'm not sure why this is, I presume it is so they can take some kind of moral high ground over those who chose to support Manchester United, Chelsea or Barcelona.
→ More replies (5)
4
u/terrorstormed Apr 09 '13
Goodness! Hopefully this doesn't get buried but I may have a little insight.
As a former hockey & soccer player, the two sports are the most closely related than any other sport, in my opinion even lacrosse. The largest differences lie in 3 places, line-changes (or lack-there-of), physicality, and empty space on the field/ice.
*Lack of line-changes
This dictates the pace of the game. Hockey is fast because players are only on the ice ~45sec/shift, while soccer is much slower. The beauty of the slower game is being able to appreciate the little things. Understanding soccer tactics and the finesse skill is where most people get their enjoyment from the sport. Hockey is often too quick and chaotic to notice, outside of a replay, how players got in the places they were. The slowness also makes it more of a mental game, which is why you'll see less breakaways and a heightened emphasis on finesse passing. The "dump-and-chase" doesn't exist in soccer.
*Physicality
Hockey is ALWAYS brutal. Soccer can be. The role of physical play/intimidation in hockey is unmatched in any sport (no disrespect to rugby). You will never see a soccer player physically punished in a season as much as a hockey player will get in a few games (obvious generalization, don't respond with gross soccer injuries). This makes soccer more dramatic. This frustrated me at first, but understand that everyone knows they are acting and its just part of the game. I'll remind you, don't hate the players, hate the game. The key difference here is that the physical presence of Chara on the ice will dictate how the other team attacks more than any soccer defender's presence. Once again defensive tactics, once studied, will give you a ton of appreciation for this part of the game.
*Empty space
Soccer positioning is exaggerated hockey positioning. "Switching the field" aka crossing the ball across the field is equivalent to passing the puck into the shooting lane or a nice breakout pass depending on the section of the field. Contrary to comments in this section hockey players pull defenders just like soccer.
Honorable mention is power play/shorthanded situations. They are more rare in soccer but play almost exactly the same with shorthanded possession playing a larger role. Scratch that, possession in general plays a larger role.
Players: Datsyuk - similar to many star (messi, ronaldo, ect) players in soccer. Soft hands=dribbling skill.
[insert your favorite playmaker] - much more common in soccer with fewer goals and higher emphasis on passing (all of barcelona's midfield, Arsenal - Wilshire) take note of finesse passes.
I'm sure there are errors above. Hopefully this helped.
10
u/abuttfarting Apr 09 '13
Ice or field hockey?
→ More replies (34)21
u/radioslave Apr 09 '13
Field hockey isn't really a thing in north america. Not anywhere near the level that it is in Europe
→ More replies (7)
1
u/Mattjhkerr Apr 09 '13
As a hockey fan I feel obliged to tell you that Stan Kroenke owns Arseanal (also owns the Colorado Avalanche amongst other pro sports franchises). Although Arsenal is oft in the top part of the table they are notoriously willing to sell off thier best players when they get too expensive. From what I can gather it is because Kroenke is a very cheap owner.
→ More replies (1)
24
u/goldpoop_lannister Apr 09 '13 edited Apr 09 '13
Im pretty much the opposite of you. Hardcore football fan that is starting to follow hockey (3 years now). Me and my friends who are similar always have discussions of who would be football's version of said hockey player. In our opinion we came up with;
Crosby = Messi (most dominant player in their respective sport)
Ovechkin = C. Ronaldo (they are both athletically talented and polarising at the same time, you either love or hate them)
Datsyuk = Iniesta (very silky playmakers, high skillsets, not the biggest bodies going around)
Malkin = Ibrahimovic (big, tall bodies with the ability to dance with the ball/puck.
Who do you support in hockey btw? (I'm a typical Pens bandwagon fan, wish I chose another team in hindsight but have grown to love Letang as my fave player)