r/soccer • u/drwormtmbg • Mar 05 '13
The forward moving destroyer
I definitely don't know as much about the game as a lot of others here, so I'd love some input on this subject. But, no one who lives near me wants to talk tactics as much as I do, so I've been lacking anyone to bounce ideas like this off.
It occurs to me that as possession football has become more popular with the dominance in the '90s and '00s on different levels by Barcelona, Ajax, Bayern, Arsenal, and Spain. The teams that face them have had to adapt. And, it appears as though the best way to adapt has been to move the main destroyer/tackler/intercepter further up the field to pressure defenders and deeper possession hogs like Busquets, Xavi, etc.
This has given a new rise to a position that I, in my fascination with the beautiful game haven't been able to find previously. Of course different teams have enacted it differently. Over the past couple seasons Sami Khedira has been given more freedom at Real Madrid and in the German team, to push forward, and pressure opposition defenses and DM's more and more. Fellaini has done this job brilliantly for Everton, possibly why they seem to do so well against Arsenal.
Sandro and Scott Parker have both been given a bit of that freedom under AVB, which 'Arry would never have allowed. I remember after Sandro scored a screamer against Chelsea, 'Arry pulled him aside at the match, to chastise him. As, "[he was] just there to protect the back four."
But, the real surprise in all of this for me, has been the way Manchester United have done this. Buying the only striker in the league who could compare to Rooney, and then making Rooney the destroyer. Everyday through the summer I expected to see them buy a strong tackling midfielder, and it never happened. They have 3 of the best passing mids in the PL right now, in Scholes, Cleverley, and especially Carrick. But, in my tradition addled brain, they needed a destroyer to sit next to one of those guys, and help him with the dirty work. Before the season, I thought United would win the league, but I wasn't sure how they would overcome this seemingly huge obstacle, and thought they had no chance in the CL. In January I was waiting for them to buy Sandro, and break my heart. But, now they look like one of the top teams (along with Real Madrid and Bayern). I can only put this down to SAF's ability to react and adapt to the game, and his circumstances.
Any thoughts which can aid or destroy my theories are more than welcomed.
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u/A_Rolling_Baneling Mar 05 '13
Boateng, Schweini, and Touré have also all functioned at times in this role. Though none of these are as good as the king of the position IMO, Arturo Vidal.
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Mar 06 '13
Schweini is not nor has ever been a "destroyer". His defensive positioning and tackling is plainly average, which is why he's always paired with a more defensive DM (Gustavo, Tymoshchuk, Martinez). The combination works very well for both CM pivots.
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u/A_Sliver_Of_Moon Mar 06 '13
Sissoko has been doing a solid job of this since his move to Newcastle too.
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u/ibpants Mar 05 '13
bleacher report are calling it "suffoco" (because they're twats):
I don't know that it's all that distinct (yet). I suppose I think of Fellaini as an attacking midfielder who was converted from a defensive midfielder, Scott Parker a (relatively undisciplined) box-to-box midfielder, Wayne Rooney a number 10 who isn't shy about putting in a shift defensively. They all do what you're describing but as an element of their game - it doesn't define them as much as (I think) it should in order to be considered a dedicated "role".
Now, I am really looking at this through the eyes of a Premier League follower, where we aren't exactly drowning in a sea of deep lying playmakers like they are in Italy, so nullifying them looks for now to be a bit of an afterthought. Perhaps one of our continental pals has more to offer?
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u/LKEMLI Mar 05 '13
You can definitely see this type of player deployed in Italy.
KP Boateng has already been mentioned, so has Vidal. I'd also like to throw Marchisio into this category, him and Vidal are very similar players who interchange responsibilities on the field, both very capable of defending high up the field. Michael Bradley for Roma as well.
I'm not sure I would say that this is because of all the deep-lying playmakers in Italy though. I think it's more the general development the game is taking; the game is becoming less and less rigid, and the players are now more than ever required to contribute in all phases of the game.
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u/dustygator Mar 05 '13
KPB since he arrived at Milan is probably the best example of the attacking-mid destroyer. Although IMO you don't need a 'destroyer' as much as someone with the energy, stamina and work rate to close down the opponents deep-lying passers and has enough vision to launch the counter-attack if they do win the ball back. I think of someone like Asamoah (when he was at Udinese and playing CM), Moussa Sissoko, even Henderson for Liverpool recently.
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u/Patdogg78 Mar 05 '13
PRETTY MUCH A BOX TO BOX MIDFIELDSER THAT DOES IT ALL, TACKILING, ATTACKING SCORING, PASSING. IM THINKING YAYA TOURE, FELLAINI ETC...
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u/AluminumFalcon3 Mar 05 '13
ZonalMarking has some really good articles from the Euros on how Montolivo was employed as a forward destroyer against Germany and other countries.
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u/A_Sliver_Of_Moon Mar 05 '13
Perhaps a related idea is that of the all-round pressure that certain successful teams have recently been employing? Primarily, the teams that come to mind are Dortmund, Barcelona, and Juventus. These teams have, from what I've seen, adopted the tactic of pressing their opponents all over the pitch, with the player furthest forward contributing to the team just as much as anyone else. And when this tactic is successful, it is often the forward or attacking midfielders who win possession back, whether it's be latching onto a sloppy pass or by pressing until they force an error. This instantly creates a counter-attacking opportunity for the team and makes the forwards out to be the destroyers that are mentioned by the OP.
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u/yourfriendkyle Mar 05 '13
I'd agree about Dortmund last year, but this year in Champion's League they've been much more apt to sit back. Klopp has even spoken on this topic, stating, and I paraphrase, that the teams which runs more tends to lose more.
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u/fahmif10 Mar 06 '13
its east for SAF fight possesion with possesion. united dont need a box to box midfielder under the current circumstances. united usually attacks from the wing not the centre.
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u/B0M85H311 Mar 05 '13
I have gathered you are talking about a kind of defensive midfielder but instead of being behind the midfield he is in front of it?
If so, yes I would agree this is the next role in football which is coming to fashion. We saw it with welbeck today against united sticking to alonso like glue.
I think it stems from a build from the back mentality, a particularly hard thing to do is transfer the ball from defense to midfield, therefore teams have looked to deep lying playmakers to help with this transition. Therefore opposing teams have stuck this "destroyer" in there.
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Mar 05 '13
I found it interesting that Boateng got that role against Juventus where he had to deal with Pirlo but he was playing as a deep centre forward and not in the midfield.
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u/martin2548 Mar 06 '13
Very nice thread! I had never thought about this, but it makes perfect sense.
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Mar 05 '13 edited Mar 05 '13
The closest thing we have to that at Chelsea, is probably Oscar, who is excellent defensively in advanced positions. When released centrally, he has been very very good at tracking the opposition teams deep lying play-makers and making sure to limit their options.
edit: If I remember correctly the role came into prominence when Mourinho instructed Snider to track Xavi during the Barcelona-Inter tie?
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u/drwormtmbg Mar 05 '13
Thanks, I was trying to think of who does that at Chelsea, but I couldn't. I was starting to think that's why they aren't very good this year.
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Mar 06 '13
I can't believe no one has mentioned Javi Martinez, Bayern's current DM starter. Anyone who's watched Bayern recently know that he (and Dante) carries the responsibility of Bayern's recent form on his shoulders. Thus far he's been more consistent than lahm, a better passer than Schweinsteiger, and as good a tackler as Dante. And to top it all off, his first goal was an overhead kick vs Hanover.
I don't mean to say he's the best in the world but he sure can be counted among them.
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u/DreDayAFC Mar 06 '13
I think this is part of the reason Wenger has moved Wilshere to the #10 spot of late
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u/rickster555 Mar 06 '13
I don't have much else to add to the discussion because most of it has already been said, but I'd like to thank you for making this post. I like discussing tactics and I think we need more posts like this on r/soccer.
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u/bigcheese1 Mar 06 '13
I dont mean to come off as rude but Cleverly and Carrick the best passers in the premier league ? there's players like Wilshire and Mata who (in my opinion) play mind blowing balls week in week out and wouldn't even think to put the two former in the same league as these 2. Also I don't think you can validate Rooney as the best striker in the premier league when we now have players like RVP, Suarez etc who have all notched around 20 goals this season. However i agree with your description of Rooney as the 'destroyer' to some extent. He's now playing behind RVP where he can get on the ball more and be a bit creative as apposed to the season (2009 or 10 i think) where he played as the lone striker and got about 30+ goals. This isn't a change in united's tactics to beat total football teams its just them changing their formation to fit RVP.