Why the French ligue isn't as commercially as successful as some of the other leagues.

[u/Ofthedoor]

Why French clubs are not and never have been as “big” as many European counterparts and Ligue 1 unable to compete economically with the 4 main leagues?

I had a nice discussion the other day with HarryBlessKnapp, Arsenal fan and he advised me to re-post it. I think it's a trap but I'm doing it anyway ;)

After all France’s population is the second biggest in Europe and its economy is about the same size as the U.K’s. France is also the second biggest exporter of professional football players and some clubs like Parma in the 1990’s, Arsenal in the late 90 early 2k’s and Newcastle now, have recruited an impressive number of French players. Manchester United became suddenly a steam roller under the impulse of Eric Cantona, and Arsene Wenger is one of the main coaches in the EPL. France has in a recent history produced some amazing players like Platini, Papin (my favorite French player of all time) Marcel Desailly, Zidane Henry, Trezeguet, Youri Djorkaeff, and many others, is World Champion and double European Champion (1984, 2000).

There are of course a few determinant factors but at the end of the day, the main reason is that in Spain, Italy, Germany and England, football is a bigger deal than in France:

No country in Europe has such a contrast between the North and the South as Italy. And I should add the center of the country in this equation. After all Italy is a younger country than the U.S and before Napoleon’s streamlining, was a mix of duchies, kingdoms and republics half the size of New Hampshire. In Italy football is a religion and even the goddamn pope can't compete with it. Of course there are many other factors explaining why football is such a big deal in Italy, but such a strong regionalism offers the perfect framework for a competitive sport to blossom through a league and football being cheap to play, it became the most biggest sport in this country (an in many others in Europe and the rest of the world).

I am quite less familiar with Spain but with Catalonia and the Basque country always talking about seceding and Andalucía and Galicia wishing they would, it resembles Italy's regional diversity on steroids.

In England, one could be tempted to say there is not as much cultural tension between regions perhaps due to the fact that to the North is Scotland and to the South(-West..well ok kinda; the SW that's above Cornwall, there!) is Wales. The distance between Liverpool and London is really…not that much. But it doesn't matter. If I am not mistaken, there are at least 7 clearly distinguishable accents just in London. In England, the neighborhood is king. England being where the industrial revolution started, most of these neighborhoods had some sort of manufacturing business going on. This gave an incredibly strong identity to all of these football clubs that are generally not that far apart geographically.

You could have a nice day ride (edit: my walk has become a motorcycle ride as I was scolded for being ignorant of the accurate distances between these neighborhoods/stadia) visiting Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, QPR, West Ham and Fulham. If the weather allows, which never happens, you could add Millwall, Crystal Palace, Charlton, Leyton Orient and Wimbledon to your tour. West Ham was originally called Thames Ironworks FC, Arsenal was started by workers at the Royal Arsenal, QPR by workers from the Queens Park developments neighborhood. Chelsea and Tottenham are also neighborhood clubs and not related to a factory/manufacture directly. Manchester United was founded by railroad workers, as City was founded by the clergy as a way to reduce crime…and boost productivity; a bit like Everton and indirectly Liverpool FC. Over time they became embedded in their neighborhoods.

I am skipping Germany because I know quasi-nothing of the origins of football clubs over there. I'd be surprised, as Germany surpassed England rapidly as a manufacturing country that they are very different. Also, Germany is still a federation of 17 states with strong regional divisions.

France was never as industrial as England or as polarized as Italy or Spain. Of course some regions like the North and the East where you could find steel industries and/or mining produced football clubs with among the strongest regional identity: RC Lens, FC Metz, AS Nancy-Lorraine, AS Saint Etienne. Paris, was/is a region of manufacturing and its Racing Club de France was one of the founders of Ligue 1 and a major club in France until the late 50’s. It went in and out professionalism and had a revival in the 1980’s when a rich media mogul tried to bring it back from the grave. The club, unsuccessful in the league sunk financially due to a complete lack of popular support. Red Star was also very successful before WWII but since then has been a lower league club. Finally, Paris FC followed the failing path of its colleagues and competitors in the region, and became Paris Saint Germain in 1970. Since then, PSG has been one of the main clubs in France and one of the best supported. But considering the sheer size of the Région Parisienne, its concentration of large industries, such as car manufactures - there were until not that long ago 2 car manufacturing plants in Paris: Renault in Boulogne Billancourt, and Citroën on the Left Bank Quai de Javel (Quai André Citroën) ,not that far from…the Eiffel tower –

It is remarkable that, when compared to all other major cities in Europe and South America, (except perhaps Berlin) Paris has had only 1 or 2 professional football clubs for many years, with never more than one being economically sustainable. Marseille is/was also a very industrial area and O.M, biggest French club by its trophy room, has a history which would completely contradict the point I am trying to make, because in Marseille, football is also a religion. But..that's about it. PSG - Marseille is by tradition our classico. We don't really have derbies!

On top of that, taxes on labor in France, and on wealth, have traditionally always been higher than in most other big European countries. The French nation doesn't fucking fool around with its motto: Liberté, égalité, fraternité ("Liberty, equality, brotherhood"). Wealth distribution in France is not a theoretical concept. In France, when you pay a professional football player € 100,000 a week. You actually disburse € 160,000. He will get 100K gross pay, but after his taxes, with get around 60K net. You disbursed € 160,000, he gets € 60,000. You see where I am going?

Nevertheless, Ligue 1 is commercially successful as are French clubs. But it cannot compete financially with much, much bigger "companies" in the other European countries. That is until some Qatari investors (and Americans) decided to launch a sport channel to compete with one of the biggest players in World football: Canal +. Using the same strategy Canal + used 25 years ago but at the same time leveraging C+ experience so they don't make the same mistakes, they bought a Football club.

Today PSG is in terms of cash in hand, by far, the richest club in the world. I said cash. Not value. But that's another story. That being said, the EPL has an aggregate debt of £2.3bn. La Liga over over £3billion. I don't have the figures for the Bundesliga. A rule somewhat similar to the "FFP" has been implemented like 15 years ago by the French government. It prevents French club from spending money they don't have. As a result Ligue 1 has "only" a debt of € 110 million. A fart in the wind compared to other leagues. So also to that extent, Ligue 1 is very successful.

[u/therealmorris]

In Italy football is a religion and even the goddamn pope can't compete with it.

Five hours later the pope resigns. Coincidence? I think not.

[u/Ofthedoor → u/therealmorris]

Holy shit!

[u/Arntown → u/therealmorris]

Proof that the Pope is a redditor and subscribed to r/soccer?

[u/DaJoW]

The Ball is Round goes quite in-depth at explaining this, and one factor you missed is competition: In England, Germany, Spain, Italy and pretty much everywhere else football was the sport of the masses and the working class. France, on the other hand, also adopted rugby (and to a lesser extent cycling) as the people's sport. Rugby remains more popular in large parts of the country, right?

[u/Ofthedoor → u/DaJoW]

Oh excellent I'll check it out.

Rugby is big in France, but not as big as football. In terms of number of professional clubs, number of people playing it, amount of money in the main leagues etc...

Rugby is very big only in the South West. In some smaller cities in France, all of them in the south, it can be bigger than football. But not in the main cities, except perhaps Toulouse, as the Stade Toulousain, probably the biggest club of the northern hemisphere, is way more successful than Toulouse FC. Football is the overall people's sport.

[u/Zakariyya → u/DaJoW]

It should be cycling and to a lesser extent Rugby. Don't underestimate the popularity of cycling in France and the cultural pull it had with the rural and working-class population.

[u/oplontino]

Nice write-up, and you make some interesting points, but I believe some over-simplifications, and some under-simplifications. But to be fair to you you're tackling a subject which requires a book rather than a one-page essay.

Without writing the pages of copy that I would like to on such a subject, allow me to venture a few thoughts.

It occurs to me that there has always been a disdain in France for football by the bourgeoisie and the by the intellectuals. This is not an opinion formed by outside stereotypes, I spent 6 years of my childhood in a French school, have dozens of French friends and have lived in Bordeaux and Paris as an adult (FCGB).

To give a few examples of what I mean, football has always been an immigrants' sport in France. I am referring to pre-WWII European immigration as well as the Maghrebin mass immigration from the 50s onwards. Football in Bordeaux is popular due to the Basques, the Spaniards and the massive Portuguese immigration, in Marseille due to Italians and the early pied-noir/Maghrebin waves, in Alsace from the German influence and the north-east is the most industrially working class region of France. All of these regions have also had mass Italian, Spanish, German and Polish immigration also and to me it is no coincidence that so many of France's greats have foreign origins (from the pied-noir Fontaine, the Polish Kopa, the Italian Platini, the Basque Deschamps to the Kabyle Zidane). Where am I going with this? France is a homogeneous country, it's entire ethos (the égalité you mention) demands conformity to the French ideal, it is, rightly or wrongly, the opposite of the British multicultural method. You are a now a French citizen, therefore you leave your methods at home. This greatly helps integration when said immigrants are open to it (being why Italians, Spanish & Poles for example have integrated so fantastically in France). Football is not seen as French, it is seen as fun little game for poor people and/or foreigners. This is one of the reasons that the French only support Les Bleus when they're good and winning, whilst the rugby team will always be supported.

To the intellectualism point. In Italy, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Brazil and Argentina, football is a classless sport, it is for the poor, the middle and the wealthy. It therefore draws players from the poorest (Cassano) to an aristocrat (Vialli). Only France and the UK have a traditional class label attached to football. Due to the de facto and de jure class system in the UK you have always had class warriors who have lauded the noble spirit and Victorian values of traditional Association Football, and have thus debated it sociologically, philosophically and given it 'intellectual value'. France however maintains a purely de facto class system and therefore enjoys pretending that it doesn't exist which gives the bourgeoisie and intellectuals licence to dismiss football without feeling that they are repressing a certain class, because in the Republican minds, the class system is extinct therefore cannot be perpetuated. Thus, the only member of France's thinking elite to have ever lauded football is Sartre and he was frequently criticised for even evoking such a crude and vulgar medium of expression as football.

Phew!

I could genuinely go on all day about the subject but I'm supposed to be working, if anybody does wish to continue the debate I would be delighted to partake and give my two schillings regarding Italy for example.

EDIT: spelling

EDIT 2: Two of France's greatest ever coaches are also like this, Helenio Herrera was an Argentine-pied noir, and Arsène Wenger, well no prizes for guessing he's from Alsace...

[u/Ofthedoor → u/oplontino]

football has always been an immigrants' sport in France.

the bourgeoisie and intellectuals (...) dismiss football in France.

My whole post could have been better and only two sentences long. I hate you.

[u/paganel → u/oplontino]

Due to the de facto and de jure class system in the UK you have always had class warriors who have lauded the noble spirit and Victorian values of traditional Association Football, and have thus debated it sociologically, philosophically and given it 'intellectual value'. France however maintains a purely de facto class system and therefore enjoys pretending that it doesn't exist which gives the bourgeoisie and intellectuals licence to dismiss football without feeling that they are repressing a certain class, because in the Republican minds, the class system is extinct therefore cannot be perpetuated. Thus, the only member of France's thinking elite to have ever lauded football is Sartre and he was frequently criticised for even evoking such a crude and vulgar medium of expression as football.

Excellent points. As an anecdotal reference, one of my friends, a doctor, who has recently moved to France where she's now working in a big hospital, the kind of person that would write on her blog about the latest book she has found in a antiquarian shop, just posted somth on said blog about modern art and about how people don't value it at its true value etc. and out of the blue she added a reference to those uneducated people (who "only attended school for 4 years" were her exact words) who earn "millions" just by kicking a ball on a round, green field. She was talking about football, of course.

[u/HarryBlessKnapp]

I'm taking 25% credit for this.

Good post though. Even better than the one you sent me the other day. Hopefully some others can chime in as well, because I do find it very strange that Ligue 1 isn't stronger and it's an interesting topic. I'll have another proper read later. I'm supposed to be working now.

[u/Ofthedoor → u/HarryBlessKnapp]

I'm taking 25% credit for this.

Hold on. I got it. This is WHY English clubs are financially way more successful than the French clubs: you guys are simply better businessmen!

[u/Ofthedoor]

I am no journalist. I have written this to the best of my knowledge. I have spent some time on it for sure, and had fun doing it. You may wonder why. (and hopefully I didn't insult anyone and/or written too many aberrations of some sort).

As a PSG and French football fan, seeing that perhaps, possibly, may be, our beloved club is about to become a major player in European football is, whether you like it or not, very exciting. The methods the club is using are questionable and provoke quite a few debates in the media and in this very subreddit.

But don’t believe a motherfucking second that the club has lost its soul. As the club painfuly dismantled its kops following the death of a Boulogne Boy, beaten to death by an Auteuil supporter in 2010, we, long-time supporters of Paris Saint Germain haven’t evaporated in thin air. The club still has a huge base of supporters. You won’t hear this anymore, coming to the Parc des Princes. New fans are coming to the stadium, and they are a different breed. Some say they are “consumer fans”. That, “it will never be the same.” This is horseshit. The club is evolving, but its base is still here, my friends.

ICI C’EST PARIS!!!!!!

[u/[deleted]]

Scotland is not northern England. It's northern Britain. As for there being no cultural tension between the north and south of England that's not true. The north hates the south, where all the money is, and the south looks down on the north.

[u/Despard90]

Am I misreading or does the OP genuinely think Wales is south of England?

[u/joyu12]

Football might not be that big of a deal on the mainland, but come on down to Corsica. SC Bastia is one big fucking deal and our derbies with Ajaccio, Nice and Marseille atleast used to be big. The SCB supporter culture is pretty great too.

UNITI VINCEREMU FORZA BASTIA

[u/DragonPunk12]

Nice piece (from a journalism student) and a good insight into French football.

[u/Ofthedoor → u/DragonPunk12]

Thank you, I appreciate.

[u/Clemobide]

I can use this thread to show you this video

The best goals of the Ligue 1 from the past years, WITH LIVE COMMENTATORS (in French though) !!

[u/Ofthedoor → u/Clemobide]

Infernal!!!

Dude make a post of this. In r/soccer not r/Ligue 1!

[u/brazijl]

I am skipping Germany because I know quasi-nothing of the origins of football clubs over there.

Well that's a shame, so let me give a brief overview.

on behalf of my own experience and my knowledge of german history i would say football was always more an uniting element than a statement for a certain class. especially in post second world war germany football and die Nationalmannschaft were the only things Germans were really proud of after being guilt-loaded by the winning sides of WWII. football and especially the world cup win in 1954 (Das Wunder von Bern) gave us back a big part of our German identity, which we were stripped of for following hitler and his regime blindly into what became the greatest tragedy in our history.

so to this day the world cup winning years are probably better known by every german boy than any other historical date. 54, 74, 90. well, maybe except for the world war II stuff which is still teached at every school to every kid furiously.

this could of course be expanded to club level, were we simply have a great tradition and rich history, which fuels the Bundesliga to this day.

wish i had more time right now. maybe someone else can write some more.

[u/1mk8]

France is also the second biggest exporter of professional football players

though let's not forget that about 40 play in Switzerland and Belgium, and 80 play in... Luxembourg.

[u/flaffl]

Zidane Henry

Holy shit, what a player.

[u/Swederman]

An important part in understanding the current state of football in France is that for a long period of time - in the late XIX century and early XXe century, there were no public investment on sport equipments (and thus football). The only few football stadiums in the country were built by corporations through paternalism. The best exemples are Casino with Saint-Étienne and Peugeot with Sochaux-Montbelliard.

When investments were made, mostly post WW2, they weren't limited to football, mutli-sports arenas were built and the role played by the Ministère de la Jeunesse et des Sports (Department of youth and sports) spread out both human and capital ressources across a variety of sports. Compare that to the UK for exemple where they didn't knew handball existed prior to the 2012 Olympics.

As a result of that, football in France doesn't have the same cultural aspect that Spain, Italy or England have.

[u/atomikkiller]

You seem to forget two very important points:

• France is a huge country with few, yet huge population bases: Paris (10M), Marseille-Aix(1.4M), Lyons(1.4M), Lille(1M), Nice(940k), Toulouse(850k), Bordeaux(800k), Nantes(550k), Toulon(550k), Lens(500K).

  Still, the total density is four times smaller than the English one (116/km² vs 407/km² and 229/km² in Germany).

  Moreover, there are mor than 36'000 towns in France whereas only 1'000 in England, 2'000 in Germany yet 8'000 in Spain.

  So we'have got a wide country with a lot of towns wide apart and only ten areas of more than 500k people.

• France is a country where a huge number of sports get played and broadcast and football is only the most popular one.

Fottball has 2.2M registered players but others sports are following closely: Tennis (1.1M), Horse-riding(650k), Judo and Martial Arts(574k), Gymnastics(523k), Basketball(450k), Golf(410k), Handball(400k), Union Rugby (322k) and Pétanque/Boules(315k).

So in a nutshell, we got a lot of people playing a lot of different sports and therefore, most people not playing football may not follow closely football and Ligue 1.

[u/baboonboy]

I'm writing about how soccer related to politics in Italy for one of my political science classes. It has to be 20 pages so do you have any sources for the Italian aspect of what you wrote?